Remember what I wrote that to watchdoggies agreement is everything? Well in the wake of the language dust-up Mike Ratliff writes:
Those of the religion of Human Reason debate deceitfully. They focus on words and logic, but since faith is outside of Human Reason and totally not understandable by an unregenerate mind, they cannot see it nor grasp it. When we reason with them using words of faith, they hear an unintelligible language and reject it as nonsense. What we see as our Spirit-filled walk unto personal holiness, they see as hypocrisy and us being judgmental because we point out that they are mired in their flesh instead of being led by the Spirit. We become frustrated because it appears they are just being hard headed. However, they really cannot grasp the truth because their hearts are hard and God has not given them the ability to understand it by His Grace. Tragically, their religion of Human Reason also gives them false assurance they are right and we are wrong because, after all, to them we are speaking nonsense. They have a religion, but it is one of their own making and it is not Genuine Christianity. Because of that, they also use the tactics of the world. That should be no surprise to us since they are conformed to the world, they will be like it. Here is an example of these tactics exposed by my friend Ken Silva.
Get that? If you don’t agree with Mike on the language issue its because you’re not really a Christian and you’re going to hell. The more I read the watchdoggies the more Roman Catholic they become as Pope Mike speaks ex cathedra and ex communicates everyone but the people on his blogroll. I just hope the watchdoggies are as corrupt as their Roman Catholic forefathers and let my son pay an indulgence to spring me out of eternal damnation.
Is anyone else shocked that Mike Ratliff would make the issue of particular words as central to Christianity as something like the resurrection?
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
67 Comments(+Add)
Wow.
We didn’t say it was wrong to refrain.
We said it was wrong to absolutize a particular moment in the language of a culture.
oh, well.
NC,
The watchdoggies never saw a strawman they didn’t like.
that post is the modern publican and pharisee.
blessing themselves for Thanksgiving.
The Keningrid-ites spaz again!
yay!!!!
I’m sure they all feel soooooooooooooooooo persecuted.
It’s just sooooooooooooooooo hard to be a true christian.
I mean, radio internet broadcasts to the rural hinterlands of the USA and the regurgitation of received theological formulations from some guy who last had a hit in 1990 or whenever…
These folk have a serious inferiority complex…and they’re angry about it.
But of course, that’s just vicious persecution to have an opinion.
They should take their own advice.
This has gotten out of hand Tim. Everyone should drop it, that is the Christian thing to do here. If everyone keeps attacking each other, we just look less and less like Jesus, and more and more like hypocrites. What happened to turning the other cheek? No excuses.
I don’t know what to say about all of this, as I’ve said my peace on both sides, other than it’s just getting out of hand.
I’m posting this same post on Mike’s blog too. Truth war or not, now it’s just a slapping contest.
Love,
Joe
Joe C,
Let me know when it gets posted.
Joe,
Also, I have several times resolved to not post anything more on the issue. I’m not sure how much further they can go now that they’ve damned everyone who disagrees with them.
You know, I just had a bit of an epiphany …
It is evidently perfectly fine to make up new laws and add to the scripture. It is absolutely NOT ok to ever question anyone who is more conservative than you. It’s just not acceptable.
The more rules you follow, man-made or not, the better you are.
As you can see, it can even be a matter of heaven or hell.
This thing just went from an interesting debate to a sickening display of Christian pride.
I rarely, if ever, do this … but Mike’s latest post, in light of the recent circumstances, is disgraceful and he needs to repent of it. The implications are way too far reaching. He has placed himself in God’s position and made himself judge over man’s actions … so much so that he feels it his right to condemn people to hell over their desire to defend their freedom from man-made law.
Seriously, it makes me physically sick. It’s sad because Mike normally isn’t like this.
It’s posted over there, although I’m not sure if it’ll take or not, or if anyone can see it yet. I don’t see why Mike wouldn’t let it through, I’m just calling everyone to just let go of the issue and move on to greener pastures and edification.
Joe
Joe,
It’s posted.
And now, we’re swine and a waste of time.
most in America are going to hell…the last time I looked the nation is going to hell in a handbasket…we now lead the world in “nation with the most STD’s”…..that tops “best in show for porn producing nation”. A while back it was most friendly nation towards gay sitcoms characters…..so you’re not alone…..I’d say 75% of Americans are headed to hell and don’t even care.
Nate,
And this is the heart of the issue. They can choose to repent of their behavior and treat us like brothers and sisters, or treat us with the hatred God reserves for the unregenerate. Since its easier to continue in their sin than repent and change they have to make up man-made rules, attribute it to the divine and then stand in God’s place as judge in order to continue their “ministries”.
TJ,
You won’t be saved by your morals. You’d do well to remember that.
Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that these guys evidently never sin, put their pants on both legs at once, and poop potpourri?
Really? Is it just me?
Disclaimer: No minds, attitudes, beliefs, convictions, etc. were changed during the creation of this post…or this post…or this one.
Testing…one, two, three. Am I being blocked or is my connection just slow or something?
My morals and “my way” of living got body slammed the moment I SURRENDERED to CHRIST….see most have not SURRENDERED…..for when you do….you start to say bye bye to a lot of the stuff that seemed okay before…..not because Jesus has a hammer over your head but because you have come to the END OF YOURSELF ….there is NOTHING GOOD in me….without Christ I am depraved and wretched….even WITH HIM….my flesh sometimes rises up and I do sinful things I wish i did not…Paul nailed it in Romans 7 with “Oh wretched man”….so it’s not a list of rules and regs…It’s JESUS…lovingly leading and guiding…many say the follow CHrist…they do not….they follow a FORM of CHrist…..as long as THEY are in control of their life….LOOSE YOUR LIFE…..that is how I have gained it…..I have LOST MUCH of the old me….music….ideas…..desires…yet I have grown into a NEW ME…and it is one that wants to PLEASE the LORD…not myself…..and a cussing, drinking, smoking, tatted wrinkly face hag of woman does NOT REPRESENT JESUS. ANd believe me….I DRANK before…..wasted, miserable…..no drinking now and I Look better than I did when i was younger!!
TJ,
Good for you man. I’m happy, really.
But the standard by which you are judging the rest of us is one not found in scripture.
Your list — cussing, drinking, smoking, and tatoos
That list doesn’t exist in scripture. You may not do them anymore, but that doesn’t make them wrong. There are Omish people that don’t use electricity because they believe it is too involved with the world. Is using electricity wrong just because they don’t use it?
Use scripture man!
I’ve been having a very good email correspondence with Mike Ratliff about all of this, I think a lot of this back and forth slapping is coming from a misunderstanding.
Tim and Nathan (N, I think),
Mike seems to think you’re advocating for everyone to just let loose and start cussing all the time, and thinking that behavior would be acceptable to God, and acceptable for Christians. I believe this to be a misunderstanding of what you’re saying. I do not think this is what you guys think, nor do I think it’s what your advocating. So, if this is the case, you should clarify to Mike in an email. Now whether Mike is intentionally making you out to say that, to have a case against you, when that’s not what you mean, is not up for me to decide, as I just don’t know.
I’m not going to post any parts of the emails unless he says I can. Tim or Nathan, you can email me if you want to talk more.
Joe
Did he address why he deleted your comment?
smoking and drinking and cussing deal with the ‘temple not made with hands…” it’s US….our bodies….we’ve got Christians shacked up sitting in our churches each Sunday and do not even KNOW they are in SIN….you can’t live in immorality and be pleasing God….smoking and drinking are not in scripture but it destroys your body…why do it….cussing….well duh…it’s coarse, vulger language…..James is all over the tongue….tatts…..it’s not even wise to walk around loaded with ink in your skin if toy stores are recalling junk from CHina with lead based paint….I’ve seen people who have so much ink on themselves it’s scary.
As for nate…..we sin…we go #2 and we’re human….we just want to follow Jesus and please Him. We’re not self-righteous…HE IS RIGHTEOUS and HOLY…so if we LOVE HIM and FOLLOW HIM we want to be LIKE HIM….so the things of this world just fall by the wayside…
If you do not have things in your life that you have laid down, say good bye to, or stopped doing, by the nudging of the Holy SPirit, then you must be PERFECT and had no need to come to Christ in the first place. Zaccheus was not the SAME MAN after he came out of the tree and had a meal with JESUS.. YOU CHANGE….it JUST HAPPENS…..you have an about face…you repent and TURN…..you are a CHRIST FOLLOWER….
otherwise, you’ve merely given Jesus a nod put Him on your shelf of various other idols.
smoking can be an idol
drinking can be an idol
cell phones can be an idol..the list is endless
if we can’t (and WON”T) lay something down:
it’s an idol
Tim,
He deleted my original comment because he said that there were so many comments coming in, and that my comment was very long, and he did not have enough time to address all my points (in the comment thread, I assume).
Is he misunderstanding you or not Tim? I told Mike that I would turn around and ask you if you believe in what he seems to think you do. That would show whether he has developed a straw man (could be unintentional, guys) or not.
Joe
If mike wants to talk to me he can talk to me. The comments are open and my email hasn’t changed since he emailed me three days ago. I’m not going to play HS games and write notes through a proxy.
No no no, you misunderstand me. I’m not running relay, Tim lol. I’m asking you personally. Is that what you mean? Because that would explain a lot. What I meant by saying I told Mike I would ask you, was….”If I asked Tim if what you’ve said he believes, is what he believes, would he agree with you? If not, then it’s a straw man”. So I’m just wondering, that’s all. Because I think he’s misinterpreting everyone here, you especially.
Are you saying he hasn’t actually talked to you about this???
You know, I agree with about 90% of what is posted on this site … but the Catholic bashing gets a little old after a while. I understand the irony of comparing Kengrid and the others to the RCC, but be aware that non-Protestant Christians do read this site as well (I’m Orthodox myself). You may not have to agree with us, but we are brothers/sisters in Christ.
Otherwise, keep up the good work.
Joe,
He spent all his time telling me he’s all spiritual and awesome and 100% right, and I’m all fleshly and ex communicated and such.
RCM,
I was being a bit hyperbolic.
T.J.,
I agree, smoking is very harmful to your body. Though I must confess that I indulge in my pipe from time to time.
Drinking red wine with dinner, however, is quite healthy. It’s good for your heart, and it actually contains a chemical known to reverse the aging process. Plus red wine tastes really good.
Your argument about tattoos and Chinese toy recalls is pure drivel. But I would agree that most tattoos are quite unattractive.
If this is the kind of exchange that Mike would say is God vs. the “Religion of Human Reason” than I guess I’m siding with human reason. Not that they are truly at odds… God gave us brains for a reason…
M.G.
Oh..that’s too bad Tim, but are his ideas about what you believe wrong or what? Because I think he misunderstood me too at first, but we cleared it up in email. I’m wondering why he’s giving you SUCH a hard time, among others, and just excommunicating you right off the bat.
Joe
Joe C,
No, of course I’m not advocating a constant stream of words that our culture has decided is naughty all the time.
Of course, neither am I suggesting that we pervert scripture to insert them as banned words into scripture either.
You know, I’m seeing a lot of pride, arrogance and stubborness coming from both sides here. I don’t consider myself to be a ‘watchdoggie,’ or ‘anti-watchdoggie,’ I’m just a normal person looking on from the outside and wondering why Christians hate each other so much. This whole drama reminds me of an exaggerated scene from middle school. A lot of it seems to be coming from miscommunication, people misunderstanding each other and then not even trying to understand what the other person means. It seem to be resulting in childish threats and banter that doesn’t even make sense to me. No one ever seems to want to admit they’re wrong. No one wants their pride hurt, I suppose. But something’s got to give to get this resolved. I know pastors are human too, but really, this isn’t the kind of behavior I’d have expected from ones who are supposed to be leading God’s people. I have yet to see an apology uttered forth from this site or any ODM site, but it’s time to think about doing that. Maybe you guys should be the ones to take the initiative.
I agree Merry.
As Christians, we have nothing to lose, as supposedly we’ve lost our lives already. Our pride, worthless. Our ideas, if in the flesh, are worthless.
If we hurt someone, or if someone thinks they are right, better than us, or whatever, even IF they weren’t hurt by us, they aren’t right, or they aren’t better than us, if we apologize, and soothe the flames of hell, what have we lost? Really? But think what we gain…as Christians…
If our pride is so much that we just can’t let something go, and forgive, and show the mercy and grace we so greatly demand, from our brothers, to our brothers, we have a problem.
What would it hurt to just let them think they’re right? What if they were, or, what if you were? Would it really matter? At this point, does it matter? Wrongs have been done on both sides…so…
Apologize and set the Christian example for them, be the light before men.
Let me be the first to apologize if I slandered, hurt anyone, spoke wrongly of, falsely accused, or was unloving to anyone over the last few days in the comment forums. I truly apologize with as much humility as the Lord will give me, and I want everyone to have a blessed Thanksgiving too. (Thanks for setting the example there, nc, lol).
Love,
Joe
Merry,
You wrote:
In actuality, I have seen a number of writers here apologize and/or admit error on several occasions. On at least one occasion, I felt that my error was egregious enough to warrant a post of its own.
I’m not sure why the ODM’s have grasped onto this topic (specific words and whether or not they are ontologically evil, and the nature of “cursing”), as the original article wasn’t even a response to something they had written.
In this particular matter, I agree that we don’t need any more new articles on this topic any time in the near future. I don’t think anyone writing here is “pro-profanity” by any stretch, but that they are “anti-legalist” – which is probably why those who live for legalism seem to be the most tweaked at this moment…
I’m not only a pastor…
…I’m also a client!
I was going to wait until tonight to publicly write apologies to Tim Reed, Iggy, and to Chris L. I want to word it in the right attitude and manner. But since I’m up early this morning and this thread is now emphasizing apologies, well, maybe now is the time to do so.
I’m apologizing publicly in the manner the offense was given, publicly on this blog.
To Tim Reed, I sincerely apologize for calling you at least a couple of names. My name-calling did not add anything of significance to the debate nor did it help to change minds but to give lack of credence to me.
To Iggy, I sincerely apologize for calling you a name and a closet Jesuit, that you are not a Christian and for saying I’m praying to God against you, and . In my Christian Reconstruction/preterist days, I was taught about imprecatory prayers (google it). It wasn’t from a Wiccan or Wiccan-like motivation. But that is not to excuse such an action against you, Iggy. So I do apologize to you for that.
And I apologize to Chris L as I understand this blog is yours. If I brought a Jerry Springer atmosphere of tragic and sad theatre to the blog, I apologize and am sorry for whatever else I may have missed.
I apologize to everyone else who reads this blog for bringing any offense of having to witness name-calling and words between Christians (as I hope we all are).
If there is anyone else I’ve missed that I have offended personally, I apologize to you too. Let me know.
As I’ve said on Mike Ratliff’s blog, this is not about who has the right theology but about my lack of ability to convey my thoughts at a higher level of conversation and my resulting anger that lashed out at others here on this blog. There was and is no excuse for that.
It was after posting on Mike’s blog and the sharing of some verses on there that I felt I should apologize here. I hope this is sufficient in both attitude and grace. May God bless everyone.
Thank you Tim for exhibiting the Spirit of Chrsist, we all could be exhorted by your words.
Timothy B,
Its all good bro.
Thank you, Tim B.
You have my apologies, as well, as I am sure that my responses were not always (or even in majority) Christ-like in return.
Blessings to you.
Wow.
TB rocks!!!!
In general,
As far as Mike Ratliff, The Keningrid go…
It’s not a misunderstanding.
It’s called a manipulative emotional response to the issue.
The issue is presented and they react by claiming some extreme stance not presented or advocated for.
It’s a brilliant tactical move to try to neutralize discussion.
Again, it’s NOT misunderstanding.
It’s manipulation.
Wow Merry,
You’re right.
If some people would just stay out of others backyards then there wouldn’t be this kind of conflict.
If they just kept to “eating their own”, which a lot of those kinds of churches do so well, then nobody would care. We’d just feel bad for them.
Keith,
You missed the point. I don’t think anybody here is trying to change someone’s mind.
Comment from M.G.
Drinking red wine with dinner, however, is quite healthy. It’s good for your heart, and it actually contains a chemical known to reverse the aging process. Plus red wine tastes really good.
Only in moderation….
Over here (England) the middle classes are consuming copious amounts of the stuff on a daily basis (half a bottle their evening meal and the other half with desert) and then perhaps opening another bottle, just to unwind a little more.
Alcoholism is becoming a real problem within the “middle-class” so I guess all the good it does for their hearts is kinda being cancelled out……
And I for one can’t stand the taste lol
You know what’s amazing?
I just completely re-read this post.
The “email exchange” represents “tactics” on the part of TIM!?!?!
Wow.
Talk about getting mileage out of that other brilliant move of their own:
Accuse others of what you are guilty of.
Amazing.
The sad thing is I think Mike R is more a Kengridic disciple than even he would want to admit.
But let the record show…
logic, reason and rationality has been officially disavowed by Mike R.
No wonder they can see whatever they want to see.
They have the eyes of a spirit.
What.
EVER.
There was a POINT?! Couldn’t see it for all the angst on display.
yeah, I was a bit surprised to see how much of a watchdoggie Mike R really was. He’s right up there with Keningrid.
Hello Tim,
Saw the email exchange between you and KS. Are you alright?
Actually, its best to just forget about it. There was fault both ends and hence, its pointless to point (both KS and yourself) as there are much greater things that demand your attention.
I hope you will not lose yourself and suddenly get a hardened heart. It hurts to see what is happening. It takes a man of greater moral courage to be able to forgive first.
please take care of yourself.
Joe,
I for one have stated numerous times that
1) I am not trying to defend any action itself, just trying to defend PEOPLE who engage in an action that has yet to be shown is a sin, and
2) there is a time and a place for using, and not using certain words.
Tell a joke at a funeral … any joke … and it’s not appropriate (although not sinful)
Gossip with your friends … sin.
Cuss out an unbeliever … sin.
Let one fly to your momma … not appropriate.
For Mike to think that anyone here is advocating turning into bumbling cussing sailors, letting every other word out with a cuss word or two … is just dishonest, or poor reading skills. If that’s the conclusion he came to, then he must have wanted to come to that conclusion to begin with.
Oh well … now he knows.
Keith,
Are you not bothered by people who try to control others in the name of God?
That’s cause for angst in my book.
Lance,
Thanks for your kind words and apt reminder.
BTW, I’m emailing you in a few minutes look for it if you get the chance.
Crap, I just got the email bounced back to me. If you could email me I’d appreciate it. Tim@churchvoices.com thanks.
NC: Define which “people.”
Chris L, you said:
“In actuality, I have seen a number of writers here apologize and/or admit error on several occasions.”
That’s good to hear! And I’m really enjoying the positive comments I’m seeing here on this post. Keep it up guys!
Who do you think?
The ODM’s, the “discerning”, etc.
This site and the people here do not want to subjugate people to their views.
I know I’ve always said that I don’t care if someone lives their life differently than me.
Just give me the same courtesy…because for the most part what is being spazzed about is areas wisdom, applications, not set in stone realities.
(And save the whole “atonement”, “gospel” stuff…those issues do not represent the people on this site.)
We don’t think “disagreement” = rebellion to the bible or personal attack.
It means disagreement.
Seriously.
I’m sure many of us here could be more careful in our tone, but the end game is fundamentally different.
These folk are people who are angry that other people don’t do things the same way they do things.
You can’t say the same about folk here.
These folk feel threatened by different opinions or by things they clearly do not really understand.
You can’t say the same about folk here.
These folk just jettisoned being rational and logical because of some hyper-spiritualized pipe dream because they need to claim the “higher ground” for whatever reason.
They can’t afford to admit that their views are just one set in a world of contingency, change and flux that requires Christ followers use wisdom and to respect the leading of the Holy Spirit in those they have no authority over, no connection with and no understanding of their circumstances.
Why they can’t afford to? Well I have theories. But really only God knows.
And the simple fact that tantrums and shrieking abound with hand-wringing over the most extreme of possibilities reveals that these things are NOT, as stated before, misunderstandings but straight up manipulation to neutralize real discourse that is vigorous, but free of personalized attacks and judgement of people’s condition before God.
I mean, for crying out loud, Keith! This guy Mike just disfellowshipped people because of his understanding of epistemology. A theory of Knowledge is now a cardinal doctrine!?!?! Never before in the history of the Church!
How can you even slightly soften critique of that? That’s just crazy talk. This isn’t unity over truth. This is called taking Christian history, the development of doctrine, etc. into account when you shape your views. It’s called reality.
Based on the Mike R’s assertion then the whole construct of early church doctrine–The Trinity, orthodox christology, etc. is a false religion because it is irrefutably grounded in the church father’s attempt to make Christian theology intelligible through platonic philosophical categories.
Admitting these constructs of WEstern thought are present is NOT compromise. It is the facts.
To start asserting otherwise and claiming some supra-spiritual status doesn’t make sense.
Whatever…I digress significantly, but I hope you get my point.
Seriously: Have a great Turkey Day.
NC: You know what’s really funny…you wrote your comments with the ODM’s (i.e. Ken/Ingrid/Mike R in mind and I read your comments with CRN.Info in mind…and it worked BOTH WAYS! Go figure. Honestly, all I ever wanted to know was why it is SO important to believe I have the liberty to use profanity–in or out of context. If it’s OK with Paul, I’m gonna start cussin’ again!
BTW, I’m a pretty simple guy. If you all expect me to keep coming back and being the “fly in the ointment”, you’re gonna have to dumb this thing down a little. I have a day job, so I don’t have a lot of extra time to look up words like “epistemology” or “supralapsarian” (actually I just threw that one in because I heard RC Sproul us it once) or muddle through a phrase like “platonic philosophical categories!” Man, I’m just a dumb ol’ farm boy with a computer. Speak English (I won’t require you to press “1″).
You have a great Turkey Day as well…actually I will be in mourning on Thursay, as everyone else should be.
Is anyone buying Keith’s “I’m just a dumb ol’ farm boy with a computer” routine?
Probably no more than they’re buying some of the other comments made throughout this thread. All in good fun, right?
Keith,
I must not be making sense.
Nobody is trying to make you cuss if you don’t believe it to be available to you.
That was never the point from any of us.
And it was explicitly stated.
The point is:
This actually is a point of discussion and people with a differing view have the right to disagree, but not call into question someone’s commitment to Scripture, the genuineness of their walk, etc.
I don’t care if someone doesn’t want to cuss.
I don’t care if someone believes there is an absolute prohibition on it.
What I care about is if someone won’t admit that their interpretation of Scripture on this point is driven just as much as their decisions about the culture as the people they criticize.
What I care about–regardless of the issue–is people taking areas of interpretation that are NOT essential doctrine and making their interpretation normative for all by force of will.
What I care about is people then crapping on people who won’t bow to their attempts to “god” over others.
Witness Rick’s approach to these issues vs. the ODM’s.
Rick states unequivocally his beliefs, but he doesn’t bash our hearts, our faith, our status as his brothers.
He may believe us sorely mistaken, but he isn’t throwing tantrums and freaking out.
The issue is the “methods”, the “how”…not whatever the current topic appears to be.
Does that make sense?
Again, considering this…re-read what I wrote and you’ll see there really is a big difference.
nc: The point as I see it is contained in your own words: These folk [ODM's] are people who are angry that other people don’t do things the same way they do things. You have expressed exactly how I read the words of CRN.Info contributors on this site. Just being honest.
I didn’t believe for a moment anyone could make me cuss. Maybe my satire wasn’t very clear.
You stated: This actually is a point of discussion and people with a differing view have the right to disagree, but not call into question someone’s commitment to Scripture, the genuineness of their walk, etc. That sounds great on paper, but some of the responses by CRN.Info contributors — as I read them — come across as “Keith, you’re not getting it right because you’re not intrepreting Scripture correctly, i.e. OUR WAY.” My salvation, walk, etc. may not be called into question, but since my understanding of a passage doesn’t match that of some here, I MUST be the one that is in error. (It’s like your comment “re-read what I wrote” as if I didn’t comprehend it correctly the first time and if I’ll just re-read it, I’ll see the error of my ways. I did re-read it. Didn’t see it.)
It’s their blog. I’d be shocked if they didn’t really believe in the things they posted. I have my own blog. I believe everything I write. Shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.
I believe some of the opinions expressed here ARE driven more by culture than Scripture. Why? Because there is a push within the Church (particularl the emergents) to lower the standard to the level of the culture for the sake of relevance rather than raise it. That’s why we see things differently. Probably always will.
We should probably just take Chris L’s advice and just drop the whole subject. Maybe –in light of the holiday season–we could share our favorite recipes. But NO ONE is allowed to say their’s is “the best”, that would just cause another endless thread.
Tim Bell,
I have only and always prayed for God’s best for you… and this is a welcome sight!
oops hit enter too soon!
I accept your apology and sincere hope you also forgive me if I have offended you.
All I can say is God is good isn’t he?
blessings,
iggy
Keith,
I didn’t mean to demean you with the re-read comment.
I wrote:
Again, considering this…re-read what I wrote and you’ll see there really is a big difference.
Considering this=what I just tried to clarify in that last comment.
I thought in light of that, if you re-read my first comment, it would help you understand where I”M coming from.
Sorry if I gave offense.
Again, no one here is mad that someone does/believes something different.
The point is when people believe something different and then tell outright lies/smear people who do not share that view.
This isn’t a smear site.
Disagreement does not equal smearing/lies/etc.
Tim,
Sent you a mail so that you can have my email add. Hope you get it. I don’t want spam so i won’t post my real email here.
God Bless,
Lance
Sry i’m not local but what is turkey day? Sounds like a food-filled day..
Lance,
Turkey Day is slang for Thanksgiving, which is a major American holiday. The point is supposed to be to take a day to remember everything that we’ve been blessed with, but mostly it has evolved into a day of food and football.
Nice… Sounds like a fun day
Yeah, its my favorite. Much more laid back than X-Mas. ALthough this year I won’t be around my biological family.
NC: No offense taken.
The Papists will inform you that you not a part of the Body of Christ if you are not united with the “one, true, holy apostolic church.”
The disciples of TULIP will do something worse if you reject their peculiar doctrines – they will deny you even have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
All cults set-up this false dichotomy: Adhere to US/Our Doctrine/Church/Method or you are lost.
Anything that is not in agreement with Reformed Theology as explained per the TULIP “Doctrines of Grace” is dismissed as heresy. When engaging those who are devoted to TULIP, it helps to understand this.
It really is that simple.
If we agree that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, what difference does it make about the unseen workings of that process? So the reformed guy says God elected us and we have no choice, so what’s your point? If that is true then it is true regardless who believes it or not.
And how can you come to that conclusion and be prideful about it? When an Arminian argues with a Calvinist the reformed guy sometimes takes the same demeanor like a believer arguing with a lost person.