Please forgive the page space this will take, but I thought it was worth the view…
Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
Part V
Part VI
Part VII
Part VIII
NOTE: This isn’t to suggest that Bono is the greatest theologian of our times – or that he has it all right. But to show evidence of someone trying to use their talents for the kingdom – which exists here and now – not just someday & somewhere.
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39 Comments(+Add)
Did anybody see the newest South Park episode about Bono?
When he sells all tha the has, and disappears into obscurity working in a hospce, I might be impressed.
Please don’t tell me that he can do more good by attracting attention to himself.
God requires obedience, not Nobel prize nominees
never liked their music anyway.
Typical wachdoggie response, nothing to say about the content, everything negative to say about the person.
So far you’ve done nothing good with the little attention you’ve attracted, so when are you going to be obedient and disappear into obscurity?
Sorry, Chris, I don’t watch South Park. Have you told Ingrid about your newfound habit?
If you actually watch the interview (which I severely doubt you did) with any sense of objectivity (which I am certain you would not do), you would not be quite so uncharitable…
Chris P., did you eat some bad jerky tonight, or something?
Vitriol never-ending…
With my newborn requiring my attention and lack of sleep, I don’t have time to watch the videos right now. Needless to say, AIDS is bad, and if people are doing something to prevent it/stop it/cure it, then that is GOOD. I don’t care if Hitler raises from the dead and starts helping out, I really don’t. Someone’s gotta do something about it. Why not Bono? Why not Christians?
Enough said.
Joe
Bono is a sincere and compassionate person with a heart for AIDS sufferers. I would not join with him, however. But the church is asleep while millions die and we have the recourses to help. May God wake us up to the need.
Chris P watches South Park? That explains a lot… especially his foul language he spews as he drives by!
Turn off the TV Chris P and tune into Jesus… Try reading the epistles of John, especially about if one hates their brothers the truth is not in you…
Love ya in Jesus Name,
iggy
Why on earth not?
The church has an opportunity to serve in time of crisis, and when the crisis is over to have the credibility to remain in place when all aid workers and rock stars have gone home…
Chris, you are well versed enough to know my position, and your statement seems to indicate no room for any positions but yours. I do not believe the church should join with unbelievers or questionable professors in any organized way, we should rise up as Christ’s church.
Bono and others believe that God’s primary purpose for man is humanitarian. The preaching of the gospel is our commission, but I get distressed to think that on one side they will not admit they see your point and on your side you act incredulous when I humbly and without confrontation offered one personal sentence.
I find there to be no prohibition in Scripture to working together with unbelievers in humanitarian efforts. The Gospel will still be shared. Fear not. Do good to all men.
Joe
Rick,
I guess I’m just wondering if you even watched the interview along with Hybels’ comments. Is there a reason that we should be wasteful and inefficient because we won’t do emergency work side-by-side with someone who believes different than we do?
Certainly, this is not a salvific issue or arguing for works-based righteousness, and you have my apologies if I came across that way.
At what point do you refuse aid to someone because you don’t want to work along-side someone else who believes differently than you do? At what point do you say, ‘I’m going to spend my money creating a duplicate infrastructure for serving in a crisis, even though that means there will be people who won’t be assisted because of my choice’?
Or – do you assist under a common umbrella during the crisis, and remain behind when the crisis is over?
I truly have no comprehension of a good answer for the first two questions.
If I were an EMT, I would not think twice about showing up on the scene of an accident with an atheist in the passenger seat (or driver seat) of my vehicle. My witness and service would not only be to the ones I am serving but also to the one(s) serving alongside me.
In my own experience, I belong to a church which already sponsors a missionary family who is assisting a number of churches he oversees (totaling about 4,000 people) in Masai country, many of which were formed before the AIDS epidemic became what it is today. They receive a great deal of aid and assistance from our church and the Christian Missionary Fellowship, but in this particular crisis they also receive assistance from One.org (the organization Bono is out raising awareness and money for). When the crisis is over, these churches will still be there and will be (and already are) seen as the vital hands and feet of Christ in that region. Are you suggesting that these churches and the clinics they run should turn down vital supplies (drugs, blankets, medical supplies and other needed equipment) because they don’t come from a church-run organization?
Is this what you are suggesting?
This is the reality of what is happening on the ground. Today. Missionaries and churches which have been planted over the past decades on the African continent are, in many places, the only infrastructure through which international aid organizations can begin working on the ground, unless they want to completely start from scratch. Do we, the church, give these organizations the middle-finger because they don’t believe the right things to be giving us money or supplying labor or medical expertise?
Maybe we’ve just been too theoretical about this discussion to the current point, as I actually did not expect the answer you gave. Or maybe I’m just too close (and I’m still farther removed than I should be) to this issue to be objective…
The auto accident is different, this is a planned, organized humanitarian effort that should have Jesus’ name and the gospel attached to it. Do we cooperate with Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses or skinheads? Everyone has their line and mine begins with Christ.
We as the church can reach people without rock stars and unbelievers. I have often found that when Christians cooperate with unbelievers the Christians become more humanitarian and the unbelievers don’t become more gospel.
I understand your point but I disagree and I have started and support outreaches in Africa but would never join with anyone but other Christians.
The most under-emphasized passage on the kingdom is probably Colossians 1:13-14. The kingdom is all about redemption through Christ’s blood, the forgiveness of sins. Any act that calls itself “kingdom” but does not include the cross is a masquerading imposter.
Dave,
The kingdom exists where things are as God would have them. I’m not sure what your point is… Bono is a Christian calling other Christians to action in a way that is clearly called for in the kingdom – to serve the poor, the orphan and the widow – to be the hands and feet of Christ because the cross has freed us to be them…
Chris L,
You wrote, “The kingdom exists where things are as God would have them.” So, in your thinking, is the kingdom is the realm where God’s will is carried out?
Why, healing on the Sabbath? That’s just wrong!
If in fact the kingdom is that realm where God’s will is actualized, then how could it not include individual salvation?
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
Part of God’s will or one aspect of God’s will is that all men are saved and that they come unto the knowlege of the truth. So my question to you is this: if you really believe that the kingdom is that realm where God’s will is accomplished, then why would it not AT LEAST include personal salvation. It seems the like the least common denominator — the foundation — for kingdom work.
Furthermore, the OT is grounded in the concept of the kingdom. Is it marked by healings, wonders, signs, good-will to the poor and needy? Of course. HOWEVER, it is also founded upon the New Covenant. If there is kingdom, there must be NC.
The whole point of the book of Hebrews is that we have a better covenant than the old, and bound up in the argument is the fact that Jesus paid for sin once for all.
Any kingdom movement that does not include the gospel message just doesn’t seem to be kingdom to me.
Even the passage where Jesus talked about giving a cold cup of water — it wasn’t just the cup given; it was the cup given in the name of Jesus — that’s a huge difference.
I’m afraid that too often what the ECM pushes is not the kingdom of the crucified and risen Christ, but rather a pseudobasileia.
clearly,
The Kingdom includes our “personal salvation” but, it is not JUST our “personal salvation”. In the Kingdom God is restoring all the “fallen and cursed” back into His Kingdom… which includes mankind if you understand man is part of creation that is redeemed.
I get tired of people who focus on “me” and then accuse others of having a “me based faith”.
Let’s explain the difference this way.
One side is saying salvation is all about ME getting saved, and Me not going to hell and, ME going to heaven and living happily ever after… oh and IF God merits I do something along the way yippee, but my job is to defend the truth.
The other side is…
Jesus came and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. In that He lived and showed us thing being restored by His Fathers will so that even Jesus was other oriented… meaning… He did nothing no His own but only the will of His Father. He was obedient even unto death which gave all mankind forgiveness of sin and reconciliation unto God. Jesus being now “perfected innocence” or as Hebrews states “having been made perfect” was raised and glorified and now sits as God’s right hand as the Lord of Lords and King of Kings… Mankind now has opportunity to die to sin at the Cross nullifying the Old Covenant and be raised to New Life as a New Creation and part of the whole of all that is being restored in all the New Creation and will be as with all Creation made New at the Resurrection and final judgement when the Kingdom comes to its fullness. The only “me” part is I am grateful to be even a small part of the huge picture of the eternal plan of God that was all in Christ before creation.
The focus of this view is not about me but about God’s will on earth as it is in heaven and focused on God’s Kingdom and all He is doing. The other is “true” but is not the whole focus of salvation. We are not “saved” from God, only His wrath if we do not accept the restoration. We are saved unto God through salvation. There is a huge difference in these two thoughts.
Now both of these can be backed with scripture, but which one is more “ME” oriented… and which one reflects the fullness of the biblical narrative? It comes down to some not understanding one little word…. “just”.
Hope that helps,
iggy
The kingdom of God is within every believer, but it cannot be found by observation. It will not be found on earth until the King Himself comes to reign on earth and brings His kingdom with Him. I do not believe this notion that God is changing everything ti line up with His will, even the church itself is a wild ass going about her own business with little seeking after the Great Shepherd.
I believe the reconstructionist view is error, and the Great Commission is to spread the message of atonement (cross) and seek and save that which was lost. The world continues to get worse just as the Scriptures predict, and part of the slide will be the well meaning but misguided movement to elevate humanitarian, social, political, artistic, and all other venues of human experience as a part of the gospel message.
Just as God destroyed the world once He will ultimately do it again and bring in a new earth by His power not the power of His people. Humanitarian acts are a result of regeneration, not an ingrediant. Those acts can be and are duplicated by unregenerate sinners who show carnal compassion but can never glorify the Creator with their deeds. If we join with them we coagulate the deeds of God with the deeds of sinners and make them indistinguishable from each other and spiritually unremarkable.
A cup of cold water in Jesus name must be kept separate from a cup of coldwater in man’s name. If they are both poured into the same pitcher we have mixed the sacred with the profane. We as believing followers of the Lord Jesus Chrsit must remain humbly separate from the kingdom of darkness which consists of all the unregenerate enemies of God.
Sometimes the evil one comes as an angel of light, a compassionate humanitarian, but any deed done in any other name than Christ is humanism no matter how well intentioned. Kindness and compassion cannot supercede the truth that Jesus is Lord and must be openly proclaimed as such, and the church should allow sinners to donate to their cause not join in with others in a spiritually benign cause.
The one thing that should be evident is that the church is in such a state of carnality and hedonism, that Bono is ackowledged as a spiritual/humanitarian leader in our midst. Are there no prophets who can lead, no Godly prayer warriors, no missionaries that have no mansion to live in, no group of tested leaders that have not only the heart for the suffering but the anointing of God to preach the acceptable year of the Lord?
We are reduced to Bono. Perhaps God is holding up a mirror to us all.
I wonder what the Apostles would do? What did Jesus do?
Does anyone know that the Gospel ISN’T being preached to these poor souls, while helping them with AIDS?
Yeah, this movement is definitely of Satan. Satan loves helping little dying children with large Christian figures and churches right up front and center. He loves seeing mercy brought to the nations. Go Satan??
Well it certainly LOOKS evil if we label all Christians involved as false christians. But, that’s the ODMs job. Makes for a good straw-man blanket attack so that they don’t have to do anything about the problem. “Oh, it’s Satan, we don’t need to help, whew.”
Heh. Lame.
Joe
Go Bono! (not an endorsement of theology)
Yes – it is where God’s people are living in a way that His will is in effect.
Why does it seem like you’re asking some sort of either/or question here? Jesus and his disciples preached the message of the kingdom of God for 3 years before his death. Obviously, from their own reaction, the disciples didn’t understand the necessity of the cross, so apparently the message of the kingdom us supplementary to, but not a replacement of, the gospel message.
At the end of the book of Acts, we read:
And from James, the brother of Jesus, we learn:
Now, it seems like you’re setting up some sort of false dichotomy here:
It seems like you’re saying that one cannot serve the poor if, somewhere in there – like the condominium pitch during a “free” vacation – you don’t do a tract throw-down of the Roman road. If a Christian is serving the poor, the orphan and the widow in their distress for the glory of the One who saved them, they are living out the gospel so that their Father in Heaven will be praised. Are you suggesting that they have to be so poor in their faith in God and the Holy Spirit that the He and His Spirit won’t move in those being served to take notice, and to seek the One who brought physical deliverance to them? Or – as is the case in many of the villages in which aid is being brought from the west – do we not trust that the poor churches who are the local sponsors and facilitators of that aid (even when it arrives from “secular” sources) have not already been sharing that message? Is every Christian a one-stop-shop when they provide aid – aid which is meaningless if they do not lay out the plan of salvation to the children (who can’t even speak their language) they comfort, feed and provide water & shelter for?
In Masai-land, where my own church is serving, when the aid stations and international workers leave, there will remain in place 40+ churches with 4,000+ members to serve their communities. Tell me – if these churches are seen as the hosts of earthly comfort and aid in this time of crisis, how likely is it that, when the crisis is abated, the people of the community will be willing to hear the gospel because they have witnessed its power in action?
It is not an either/or proposition. It is taking care of an emergency situation, while caring for – and teaching, of course – the least of these.
If the church is absent in this time of crisis, they have not credibility when the crisis is over. If the church is present and at the forefront – even if they require assistance from outside the walls of the church – during the time of crisis, how does that not speak the power of God in a credible way?
If the Kingdom of God was only about “saving souls”, it would seem to me that Jesus wasted a lot of time feeding, healing, and raising people from the dead while He was on earth. Someone should have told Him that He was doing it wrong.
So all of that lovely theology aside, Clearly, et. al.: what are you doing to help the poor right now?
That’s the question we have in front of us to act on, not so much an in depth debate on passages of scripture from our comfy homes with food in the fridge and a computer with internet access. What are we all doing right now, here, there, and everywhere? I’m talking hand-dirtying, highly inconvenient, pushing the edge of being bearable, sacrificially giving of money I don’t have extra of — what are we doing now?
You can love Pauline literature all you want, Clearly, and I can love classical art and architecture, but the very clear “done it to the least” verses leave much less room for all this pussyfooting around and debating the specifics as more people bite the dust.
With the poor, and the importance of helping those who suffer in the temporal — what part of Matthew 25 isn’t clear?
“For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”
For people who tend to take scripture very literally and swing it about and say “what part of what Paul said isn’t clear to you? Ha. Refute that.” I say the same thing back — what isn’t clear? What is left to argue? Is this passage now figurative, the food and drink and clothes being figurative references to the Gospel? Does that now best suit your theology? Do we now get to haggle on the context, here? Or, is it obvious and direct?
If you see someone who needs food, you give him food. If someone is thirsty, you take care of that. If they need clothes, do something about it. IF PEOPLE HAVE NEEDS, MEET THEM. Help those doing that work financially, if that’s all you can do right now.
What is there to question? Some of this discussion seems to be hinging on some kind of comparison between the the percentage of time spent doling out food and medicine vs. the percentage of time telling them they are sinners in the hands of an angry God and in need of a transformation from the cross of Jesus, or the order in which it happens that will make it Christianly acceptable to help a person who needs help. Is that what is described in these verses? Is it that complicated? Is it?
Until you’ve consistently — more than just a sporadic hit-and-miss missions trip — worked with the people in extreme need and poverty, you just can’t fathom how stupid those arguments are, right there, in the moment, suffering and pain in front of you. Feed them. Help them. Now. Quit quibbling over who you’ll let hand you the ladle to scoop up soup. Feed them!
(I would, at this point, qualify my tone as “borderline emotional, but definitely passionate” lest anyone pull out the rug on me again, in that regards…because that was an extremely unfair tactic to take and I feel I need to constantly be ready for it.)
Phil – ends verses means.
The Son of Man cameto seek and to save that which was lost. As the Father has sent me so shall I send you. No one is saying they are wrong, that is a misrepresentation of the discussion here.
And Julie that is my point exactly. The church is alseep and some are in love with their doctrines but there is a world in need, physically and spiritually, and we need to repent and go. I knowyou minister the CEntral America and I have also as well as Africa. My point is instead of calling all kinds of religions and non-religious people, how about someone like Warren going throughout the nation and awakening the church to our responsibility? People need to see the love of Chrsit not the generousity of America.
People all over the world need help in many different ways, but they all need Jesus.
Rick,
The purpose of this particular sermon/video was to be a call to the churches…
Bono (a professing Christian, looking for a way to use the platform he had gained from being an entertainer for God) went to Hybels the year before this with the question “why isn’t the church doing more?” – “if the church was doing its job, why should anyone else need to be called in?”
Hybels gave this presentation to 70,000 church leaders as a way to ask – why have we dropped the ball on this? This video has then been taken to a number of churches to ask the same thing…
(I would, at this point, qualify my tone as “very emotional, and definitely passionateâ€)
Clearly said,
“pseudobasileia.”
Bless you!
No, just joking. Thanks for expanding my vocabulary.
Bono is awesome. I think his heart is in the right place. He has the money and means to make a difference and unlike so many celebrities, he is actually doing something.
I don’t think anyone actually read my first post. You are placing the same either or upon me as you claim I am placing upon you. I am arguing that kingdom work must have as its foundation …. THE GOSPEL MESSAGE! Any “kingdom” that does not have the GOSPEL in it, is no kingdom at all.
Julie, in answer to your accusatory post — which, as an aside, I feel no need to defend my ministry to you. However, you have never met me (as far as I know) and never seen me minister. You have never seen me care for African children — you have never seen me feed a poor homeless man while we sit over the Bible and talk about how God loves him — you have never seen me share the true Gospel of Jesus Christ with a homosexual and plead with him to be reconciled to God. That’s because you would rather call me unloving and arrogant — and paint me to be some fundamentalist who sits in a monestary all day, reading the ancient Greek.
EXCURSES: For all the bad-mouthing that formal Bible education gets, did it ever occur to anyone that it may be important to know Greek in case we ever decided to take LIVING WATER to the unreached people groups of this world? It may be good to know in case we want to accurately translate the Bible into their venacular. END EXCURSES
Chris, you are right…for almost three years, the disciples didn’t have a complete understand of the kingdom. During that transitional time, they did not understand the before kingdom could be actualized in a physical way, “it was necessary for the Son of Man to suffer…” (Luke 9:22-23). Or as Paul put it (because Julie, I love literature about Paul, even if Luke wrote it), “Christ must needs have suffered and be risen again…” (Acts 17:3). There is no glorification without the cross of suffering….both for Christ and for disciples.
A Kingdom without suffering was the offer of the devil…
Clearly – Jesus also preached the kingdom for three years before there was a gospel to accompany it. Are you suggesting that he didn’t understand it either?
God is the basis for the kingdom, and the gospel is a key to it. However, when you say that the gospel is the basis of the kingdom, is it the sharing of the verbal gospel or the living of the gospel by those in the kingdom that is this ‘basis’? Or – to put it differently – must every Christian be the eyes, hands, feet and mouth of Christ, or can one Christian be an eye, another be a hand, another be a foot and another be the mouth? Or – can a Christian be Christ’s hands and trust the God will bring the Christ’s mouth in when the time is right?
To take Phil’s comment from another thread:
It just seems to me that much of the griping here is that the hands can’t work if they don’t have lips…
Everyone is capable of sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ by word. Even a foot can speak like a mouth.
That doesn’t mean if someone doesn’t share the Gospel by word, they’re sinning. Actions can speak louder than words.
However, I think they should go together, and it shouldn’t be “Hey, I gave food to this guy, I did my job”. Or conversely “Hey, I shared the Word about Jesus with this guy, he can keep sitting on the street starving as a hobo now, I did my job”. Neither person did their job, I think. Sorry.
Since every Christian should be able to give an answer for the hope in them, since every Christian is commanded to make disciples, I would hope we wouldn’t use “I’ll just be the hands” as an excuse not to share the Gospel by words. Because last time I checked…God doesn’t boom His voice down very often to tell us “Hey, with this guy, I want you to preach Christ Crucified, but with this guy, just feed him because another brother will come later.” You just don’t know. Sorry, it doesn’t happen like that guys. Wish it did. It doesn’t hurt to share Jesus with someone as you feed them, they’ll see your good deed and glorify God. That’s why God gave us His Word, so we don’t have to wait for Him to boom His voice from Mount Sinai. We know what we have to do, so let’s do it.
Joe
Joe,
I definitely hear you, and I agree that neither works nor words need be mutually exclusive. However, and maybe I’ve not been really clear on this, sometimes combining the two is not possible and/or practical, but that should not stop us.
If we use the AIDS crisis in Africa as an example:
1) Much of the aid coming in is being assisted/organized in some fashion by churches/missionaries who have been on the ground for years. Should these churches/missionaries refuse offers of money/goods/supplies/labor – which they do not have – simply because they do not come from within the church?
2) One.org has become a collection-point for much of the aid and manpower going into Africa. Should Christians refuse to work with one.org, because it is not religiously affiliated, and create seperate agencies to work through? Or – is it OK for a church or individual church members to volunteer labor through one.org to provide relief, and to share their faith, which will primarily be with other workers, unless they can speak the local language (which is doubtful).
3) If you have the skills to help in the situation (medical, civil engineering, etc.), can you only do so after you’ve taken courses in learning Masai/Swahili/etc. (without which, you can’t verbally share the gospel with 90%+ of the people you serve in Africa), or is it acceptable to serve well and diligently, wearing clothing that identifies you as a Christian?
I’m trying to be as practical, rather than theoretical, as possible here.
Clearly said, “For all the bad-mouthing that formal Bible education gets, did it ever occur to anyone that it may be important to know Greek in case we ever decided to take LIVING WATER to the unreached people groups of this world?”
Clearly, I don’t think ANYONE here was bad-mouthing Biblical education at all. I think someone was making the point that knowledge without deeds is useless (or at least that’s how I understood it) but that’s about it. I for one would LOVE to know Greek, and Hebrew as well. But anyway, Bible education or not, God will use anyone he chooses, and if one’s heart is in the right place, that’s all that matters.
Chris L,
1) No
2) No
3) Yes
I agree with what you’re saying. I just wanted to get it out there that when we can, we should share the Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and reconciliation to God with the people we’re helping. Thanks brother.
Joe
Joe,
I think another point to make is that acceptance of the gospel cannot be a condition of help, either (which sometimes gets forgotten).
A friend of mine, Rich Mullins (a Christian singer/songwriter) worked on Reservations in the American West for years, teaching music to the children there. He had a saying – “I’m going to teach you how to play the guitar. While we’re doing it, I will tell you about Jesus. Whether or not you choose to accept what I tell you about Jesus, I’m still going to teach you how to play the guitar.”
I am involved in the ministry set up after his death in 1997, teaching art and music on the rez. The Legacy (this ministry) partners with churches on the rez (which preach the gospel year-round) and offers summer camps where we teach art and music (along with having teaching, worship and small group discussion). While we are very open with who we serve, we do not make it a specific point to try to lay out the Roman Road, as the kids we are working with receive that from members of the church working with us – before we arrived, while we are there, and after we have left. These churches are there, year round, and have credibility that I will never have (partly because I am anglo, and partly because I don’t live in their culture). Have I shared the gospel when the conversation has been right? Certainly. Have I considered it a failure when I (specifically) did not have the right opportunity? No – because I know that others did/do/will have that opportunity there.
Chris,
Did you actually know Rich? I didn’t know that. That’s pretty cool. I still remember that day my junior year of college when my roommate told me he had died. I still miss him…
A very cool ministry Chris L, very cool. Good to hear that stuff is out there. I think that’s great.
Joe
Phil – yes, and words can’t express how much he is missed…
The Legacy’s web page is here: http://www.legacyministry.org/, and if any of you are artistically inclined, we need teachers/helpers for 2008 camps. I believe we (my family & some local friends) will be going to the Colorado camp next summer (probably late June – don’t have dates yet)…