It’s been twelve years or so since Ted Kaczynski, aka “the unibomber”, was finally caught and brought to justice. One of the quirks of the case was Kaczynski’s anonymous letters to authorities, insisting that they publish his unaltered ‘manifesto’, Industrial Society and its Future, in a reputable, public newspaper. In the interest of public safety and with the hopes that someone might recognize the writing and identify the bomber, the FBI allowed New York Times and the Washington Post to publish the document.

I remember picking up a copy of that document and trying to wade through it, to see what kind of person was behind such senseless violence. As I sifted through the manifesto, it became pretty obvious that, with its conspiracy-saturated ramblings, esoteric terminology, paranoid delusions and apocalyptic visions of doom, the author was completely off his rocker. It was hard to imagine that I’d ever see a document quite so off-kilter and swimmingly delusional, attempting to document a worldwide conspiracy.

Apparently, I was wrong.

In looking for boogeymen within the church – with conspiracy, esoterica and innuendo to tie them all together – this piece (referenced today here), with a tinfoil-hat-fairy-tale version here, seems to be wanting to give Ted a bit of competition. [Please note that this is not, in any way, to infer that the author of this piece is an anarchtic terrorist, but rather, I was making a comparison of tone, timbre, function and pathos.]  In the end analysis, the unibomber’s document likely contains more truth than the other, which is a sad commentary in itself.
______________________________

All comparisons aside, this is a rather sad document, in which the author arrogantly places huge swaths of God’s kingdom under the umbrella of Beelzabub:

So I have very good reason why I “lump” the Purpose Driven Church, the Emerging Church and the Word Faith Church together as they are pureed in Beelzebub’s blender into today’s Christianity Lite.

Sadly, this is reminiscent of an incident recorded in the Gospels:

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”

He said this because they were saying, “He has an evil spirit.”

While it is commanded of us in scripture to “test” what is being taught, what this particular bit of screed does goes far beyond ‘testing’ and into the realm of slander and quite possibly blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

That, unlike the ramblings of a mad-bomber, is a serious thing to consider…

Are there churches that use “Purpose Driven” methods which have been taken to extremes and watered down the gospel?  Certainly.  Are there churches that use PD methods in a thought-out, balanced fashion, which produce spiritual fruit? Certainly, as well.

Are there “Emergent” churches which have jettisoned scripture and embraced liberal ideology?  Certainly.  Are there ECM churches that hold scripture in high regard and are living examples of salt and light in the world?  Most certainly.

Are there “Reformed” churches which are bastions of legalism, clinging onto systems and traditions as if they were biblical doctrine, all the while being functionally dead to the world?  Certainly.  Are there “Reformed” churches where orthodoxy and orthopraxy are in good balance?  Certainly, as well.

Is there “false teaching” (i.e. teaching a different gospel, apart from grace, that is sending people to hell – here and in the afterlife) going on in the church as a whole?  Certainly.  Is it as wide-spread and ingrained as the ODM’s would like you to think?  Highly doubtful.
There are aspects of most every denomination/tradition in modern Christianity which are either on the wrong track or are being poorly executed. Some are more guilty than others – but every one of them is made up of individuals – indivduals who are our brothers and sisters in Christ. Even if we hold differences where doctrinal unity would be unwise or unteneble, relational unity is still important to hold within the church, as a whole. Attempting to toss millions of faceless Christians under the bus as products of “Beelzabub’s blender” is an unordained, fruitless, loveless exercise with a very real danger of hellfire…

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72 Comments(+Add)

1   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 17th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

Chris L.
You are right! I was reading this fine use of satire(notice the sarcasm) and thinking oh my goodness! Half the things he says were not even true. For instance this part was amusing:
“The Master Teacher also shared His fresh “ground-breaking” message of peace and love and an abundant life with huge crowds who followed Him to large arenas all across the Holy Land. Telling them over and over again about His concern for global problems our Lord had to strive valiantly to develop the emerging spirituality of legions of fans who would eventually ride camels and donkeys en masse to hear His really cool talks about God and other stuff.”
I am assuming he is talking about Bell going around to different places across the world preaching and teaching. Isn’t this what Jesus did? Isn’t it what Paul did? They all preached the gospel! Paul even taught things like helping the needy and poor! Yet in Ken’s poor attempt at fictional writing he mis represents the truth again in effort to mock and make fun of others. I read his stuff and think why do I bother to refute things he says? I do it because what he has to say is scary and full of lies.
You are absolutely right; everything has its issues but there are a lot of good things that have come out of the purpose driven life just like there are a lot of good things that happen in the Baptist circles! I was very disturbed reading this piece from him today! It was weird!

2   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
January 17th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

That’s a lot of words but mostly this is what I hear from Ken’s writing.

Were one slightly less charitable one would say this verse might also be relevant.

3   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Yes, Tim, that verse could be relevant, but I think to make that accusation would put the person quoting it potentially into the same boat as the manifesto writer…

4   Joe C    http://www.joe4gzus.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

From the Ecumenical Church of Deceit article…

“It’s absolutely no secret whatsoever where I stand on issues, and as I have previously stated if Christ does not choose to validate the type of stance I have taken for Him I would soon vanish.”

And Joseph Smith said he was a “prophet” and he “saw God”…and they’re [Mormons] still around today. So are The JWs and Islam…so are they true? They haven’t vanished. They took ’stances’. Is this really his standard for ‘being right’? I’m finding it harder and harder to take CRN seriously. It’s painful to see something like this. I pray for them.

What an increddibly dangerous thing to say about oneself, though. Self-serving prophecy. How ironic the verse he quotes at the start of his missive…

“Yes, this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “Do not let the prophets and diviners among you deceive you. Do not listen to the dreams you encourage them to have. They are prophesying lies to you in my name. I have not sent them,” declares the LORD.”

I’m just saying…isn’t that a bit ironic? I’m not saying Ken’s a false prophet, i’m just sayin “ironic”.

Joe

5   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Of course all of this does seem rather absurd. But all I’ve really done here is to take to its logical conclusion much of this whole pragmatic “postmodern” seeker sensitive and trite pabulum taught today in the American Christian Church. Such is what is passing for genuine Christianity in our timid and tepid time. However, the absolute Truth is that God the Holy Spirit has already warned us long ago in the Bible—His inerrant and infallible Word:

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough… For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve (2 Corinthians 11:4, 13-15).

I don’t see Ken’s story as that far off. I think you can write the same thing, as the author of this piece did, of a fundamentalist reformed church that takes liberties with legalism and an improper view of scripture.

When I listen to the preaching of Osteen, to the Noomas of Bell, The interviews of Pagitt, the Infomercials at Christmas of Warren, it makes me look up, because I pray Jesus is coming soon. While there are some good churches out there that preach the Word in season and out, I find them to be very few and far between. I will strive and will continue to preach the Gospel as commanded by my Savior in season and out of season. And I, united with others who preach the truth, will contend earnestly for the faith that was entrusted to us (Jude 3)

6   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

PB,

While I don’t agree with much of Osteen’s take on, well, anything, I would disagree with your ‘praying for Jesus to come back soon’ in response to the rest.

1) The Nooma video’s aren’t meant to be self-contained lessons, but rather conversation starters into larger conversations. I have seen them used very effectively this way.

2) The only 1:1 interview I’ve heard with Pagitt had him being consistently cut off and bullied by the host in such a way that I’m not sure what he was saying, because he never got a chance to really finish. If you’re referring to the one on hell as a “place”, I think Pagitt did himself a disservice in the way he presented himself (since it sounded like he was trying to distinguish a “place” from a “state of being”). In the exchange with Johnny Mac on yoga, I thought they both did a rather poor job getting any consistent point across.

3) I know a number of folks that started attending a local PD-affiliated after the 2006 Christmas special, as a direct result of calling a number form the Saddleback website afterwards. We blogged on this last January (with a sermon outline).

Even if it’s not your ‘cup of tea’, there are places where milk, meat or a combination thereof are necessary.

As for Jude 3 – you might want to note that ‘contend’ is not ‘defend’ – rather, it is an image of wrestling with scripture for its true application in your life. What it is not is a pugilistic “defense” of your interpretation of scripture, which is often how that verse gets used…

7   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Chris-

Listen here- http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com

8   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Joe C,
Its a shame Ken doesn’t judge others the same way he judges himself, or else he’d have to conclude that Rick Warren, Rob Bell, etc. are only there becuase Jesus Christ is there.

If only there were a verse in the Bible about being judged with the same measuring stick you judge with…

9   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Tim,
That comment made no sense at all. At no point in your incoherent ramblings did you make any sense whatsoever. The whole world is now dumber for hearing it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

10   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:46 pm

PB,
Man, people who quote Adam Sandler shouldn’t throw stones…

11   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 17th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Don’t mess with my cousin

12   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

If only there were a verse in the Bible about being judged with the same measuring stick you judge with…

Ah, yes – if only.

Man, people who quote Adam Sandler shouldn’t throw stones…

Actually, the quote was from the principal, played by James Downey, who was also an SNL writer. ;)

13   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Chris L.,
Ah, yes, I was going to say Adam Sandler movies…

14   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

Good Call Chris- You get the name the obscure quote and who said it award..

Seriously. Tim, What were you saying before the sarcastic reference to the scripture in Romans 2?

15   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 17th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

You know the line in “Big Daddy” where he offers to write their name in the wall…my idea! No credit. ****Muttering*****

16   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

Erica,

“I read his stuff and think why do I bother to refute things he says? I do it because what he has to say is scary and full of lies.”

The scariest thing is that almost all will say that Fred Phelps is way out there… and even if it is becuase they are angry becuase he is protesting at soldiers funerals… they still see him for what he is and does as hateful… for some reason, many in the Blogosphere, miss that the same attitude from Ken is also hateful. As in another thread trying to unravel what they do to Rob Bell is insane! And I am not even a Rob Bell fan (mostly becuase I ahve not had or taken the time to read his stuff, but most people who have think highly of him).

Now, recently John Macarthur did an interview on Crossway.com and slandered Doug Pagitt without any thought or any remorse… I posted this in the submissions… CRN linked to the story to prove the lie the Doug is a Universalist… and in the comments Doug states he is not! Yet, becuase of people like Ken the lies of JM are being spread around with total disregard for the truth… this so called truth that needs “their” protection as it is so fragile the unsaved can harm it… let alone knowing that Jesus is The Truth, would mean that Jesus is so fragile the we must protect Him… and that is blasphemy in its highest arrogance!

Ken is a unrepentant liar and slanderer who even when faced with the truth denies it in preference for the lie he believes… he did it with Dan Kimball and to Doug Pagitt, to Rob Bell and many others…

Is Ken forgiven? As many times as he has sinned he has forgive, but I fear he has been given over to a reprobate mind as I sincerely do not think he understands the true gospel and believes a lie that justifies what he does. I see his foundation is “self” instead of Christ Jesus.

iggy

17   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

Weird either Erica’s comment disappeared or somehow I got this on the wrong thread! LOL!

iggy

18   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

OK,

Found it… i am just losing it… sorry… nothing to see here.

(Man, i am working nights and days so i am not getting enough sleep… but I am relieved to note I have not lost touch with reality totally… yet…) LOL!

iggy getting wiggy

19   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Ken Silva like Fred Phelps?

Now who is being slanderous?

20   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 6:01 pm

PB,

No, hate is hate… Fred hates gays and america… Ken hates anything he deems “emergent”…

Do you think hate is not hate?

iggy

21   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 17th, 2008 at 6:14 pm

Pastor Boy,
Were you being funny or serious an your comment to Tim?
The Nooma video’s are conversation pieces! They have changed many lives my friend! We have actually had lunch with Pagitt; He is a very nice guy! We actually talked about the ODM’s. Again Chris is right! Everything he says gets twisted or he does not get a chance to actually speak!
Seriously, I am not saying Ken is like Fred, but I would love to hear how you think Fred Phelps and Ken Silva are different and why?

22   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 6:25 pm

Erica,

I hope it was a bit of levity that just did not come across.. I give him the benefit of the doubt on that one… if not… boy is he missing the irony of the to statements together…

At least I hope he is just kidding…

iggy

23   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 17th, 2008 at 6:27 pm

Erica-
I was trying to be funny, and I really didn’t understand his comment.

I find the Nooma videos to be quite dangerous. They have a little truth sprinkled in, nothing that isn’t ‘feel good’ stuff that is so inoffensive (except to evangelists- see Bullhorn Guy) and Rob misquotes and tells people what he thinks scripture might mean. I have looked at the study guides and Noomas BTW. My favorite was Rich- because it did make me think and be thankful for clean water and a roof and a salary.

Pagitt in his own words http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com

Ken Silva has never (to my knowledge) taught scripture falsely, Phelps has. Silva has never preached hate, Phelps has. Silva exposes heresies, Phelps is a heretic. Phelps exposes homosexuality as the major sin that is the starting point and ending point of all sins and judgement coming down on America, Silva rightly sees that false teaching and watering down of scripture by those who call themselves Christians is a far greater threat. Phelps protests funerals of Gays and soldiers, Silva writes commentaries citing scripture. Other than the fact they are both ‘Baptists’, they are nothing like each other.

24   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

PB.

Ken Silva has never (to my knowledge) taught scripture falsely, Phelps has. Silva has never preached hate, Phelps has. Silva exposes heresies, Phelps is a heretic.

Are we talking about the same Ken Silva… as I have been the recipient of Kens “hate” and also, seen him twist scripture all over the place to fit his “truth”…

Also, go to submissions and read my latest blog post… and see that Doug states he is not a Universalist… in his own words… not by way of Bob Dewaay reinterpreting and misunderstanding what Doug actually stated.

Try to see what person actually states instead of what others say he says… you see that is the difference between gossiping (which is a sin in the same verse as homosexuality) and having integrity and being honest.

Ken is a liar and twists scripture to attack others… and that is a sin and is hate. Again, do you think hate is not hate?

iggy

25   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 17th, 2008 at 6:54 pm

Pastor Boy,
Who’s blog is that you linked to?
I have to say I appreciate Rob because he studies and studies. He doesn’t bring you what he is reading he brings the text to life describing the culture and history. Sure, he often brings out a different way to look at a passage. I don’t think that makes him wrong. In fact, if you look at everything he says in the totality of scripture he is right on! For instance, Sunday he brought an incredible message! Growing up strict Baptist like I did, I have always been taught and have had a problem with women in leadership. Sunday he bring up the fact that Lydia was one of leaders in the church of Philipi. Right away I got tense! When I got home I called me dad, who is still strict Baptist!lol He of course dismissed the notion right away. I started studying for myself! I was shocked! After researching, I discovered that he is right. It appears Lydia was a leader of the church. If Rob is wrong does that make him a heretic? No, it does not. Believe it or not Ken could be wrong on somethings! It does not make him a heretic! I think we are to quickly to throw out that term when someone disagrees with us. As far as Pagitt, I want to know who’s site that is. Unless it is Pagitt’s which it did not appear to be. I will dismiss what is being said because I have seen Pagitts word be twisted to much!
Let me play devil’s advocate a minute.
Ken is not like Fred? Fred is a heretic? What makes him a heretic? He firmly believes that he is right. He firmly believes his interpretation of scripture is right. Why can Ken, believe with the same passion that he is right but Fred can not?
Ken has never taught scripture falsely to your knowledge. I have caught Ken on a number of occasions using scripture to fit what he is talking about. Something you obviously do not tolerate from Rob.
Phelps whipping post is homosexuality. You can see through out scripture that this was detestable in the eyes of God. Why is it wrong for him to stand up for what he believes? Ken’s whipping post is false teaching. No, Ken does not protest funerals but he attacks godly men and their families. He hurts them. How is this different than what Phelps does. They both have a passion and they defend it. I see no difference. I think they are both just as guilty of what they accuse the other of doing! In Silva’s last post about Bell he sets up a false Dichotomy using one verse to defend his entire rant. I would not say that is using scripture properly would you?

26   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 17th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Based on the previous post about Tone and Discussion. Can I gracefully re-enter the fray without losing face?

27   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 17th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

Hi Chris!
Why not! Give us your thoughts!

28   Brendt    http://csaproductions.com/blog/
January 17th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

While it is commanded of us in scripture to “test” what is being taught, what this particular bit of screed does goes far beyond ‘testing’…

I see a lot of lumping and over-generalization. I don’t see any testing. Chris, I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with you more. ;-)

29   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 17th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

PB,

That interview Doug does not say he is Universalist… he states that God is working in peoples lives before they get saved… do you not believe that?

Again you have Ingrid who has an agenda, twisting Doug’s words and making them mean what she states as opposed to what Doug actually stated.

This seems to be the theme…

Was God not working the gospel in Cornelius the gentile before he came to Peter and heard the Gospel? Cornelius was not a Jew…. but he had a faith… Jews did not think of gentiles having faith in God… as they were dogs.

Ingrid did not hear the answer… she heard what she wanted to hear as she already has judged and condemned Doug and others.

Doug states very clearly that he would not say all religions represent the gospel at all… go and listen as he states that… but then he is ripped apart as Ingrid does not caught what is being stated.

Doug even states that he does not think all religions are equal or that all have a common thread of “truth” in them…

I love the point when Ingrid states “How do you judge truth?” and Doug states, “We have a deep history of Christianity,” and notes scripture and and a few other things but becuase he does not just “the bible” and adds context to the scripture… Ingrid states he does not believe in the bible!

What is the gospel?

I see Doug assumes Ingrid knows the “gospel” but is stating that we see the gospel, but want to know what the other

God’s invitation through Jesus to participate in what God is doing in the world… (this is the 5 word version… not the 50 or the 500)… but do you not agree that this is true? Are we not to continue in the ministry of reconciliation.

BTW Bob DeWaay gave the 50 word version… and I think Doug would agree… and Ingrid lies that Doug did not give the answer by “scripture”…

Doug never stated that you will read the writings of Buddha and see the Gospel, he stated that God can be working in the Buddhist as a Buddhist.

The Christian story and narrative is the Bible…

Man this interview is screwed up and they twist about everything that was said. Dewaay goes off as if Doug is not stating what God is doing from a biblical viewpoint…

This is sad I just had to stop the interview as to hear Ingrid and Bob, twist and distort what Doug stated is really dishonest… yet I see it that they are not in their own minds that way… but just blinded by spiritual pride so that they cannot hear clearly or understand unless it fits their own narrow theological view point.

iggy

30   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 17th, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Chris,
Man, I’m glad you’re back. I really am

31   Chris P.    
January 17th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

2 Cor 11:
12And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

So who are the false apostles? The western church labors under the illusion that Satan and his minions look like the The Exocrcist” or “The Omen”
Paul says that they actually look desirable.

Genesis 3:
.6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

Deception, by definition, is undetectable. Worry about yourselves boys.

32   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 18th, 2008 at 9:11 am

I find the Nooma videos to be quite dangerous. They have a little truth sprinkled in, nothing that isn’t ‘feel good’ stuff that is so inoffensive (except to evangelists- see Bullhorn Guy) and Rob misquotes and tells people what he thinks scripture might mean.

PB this entire paragraph is conjecture. Could you possibly share what exactly is dangerous or the misquotes that Rob uses? That would certainly help in advancing the discussion.

“When we’re talking about calling and mission and vocation and purpose, what we’re going to give our lives to, one of the questions we often ask is, ‘What do you love?’
But there is another question that we can ask. “What makes you angry?”

Rob Bell NOOMA 16 STORE found on pg. 19 of insert.

For me Rob always strikes at the deeper issues, the heart issues. Isn’t this what Jesus did? When you lust you’ve committed adultery. When you have hatred you’ve committed murder.

33   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 9:18 am

Erica,

I must graciously disagree with you. Phelps uses scripture as an attack tool for his own personal agenda. It makes me think that he is a latent homosexual struggling to push it down to the point that he becomes violent towards others. But that is not the point. The website is mine, the recording is a radio interview. Judge for yourself.

Ignatious:

I must respectfully disagree with you also, but I will give it a listen again, listening to Dougs words, and will do my best to document for you his statements. I am sure Doug is a nice guy, but his non dualistic/platonic view of the universe drives me mad…

34   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 9:24 am

PB,

I listened to Doug’s words… and funny thing is… I understand his words…. especially when he states…

blockquote>A couple of thoughts.

For those who want me to respond to allegations of being a universalist and a false teacher I will say I am not.But for most that will not suffice. I have written a number of books on this topic and have one coming in May called A Christianity Worth Believing. But I am also sure that all this will not remove such concerns.

Funny how if you listen with a “modernist” view, you miss what he states… if you take out, modernism, Plato and dualism… and then go to scripture, Doug makes sense and is biblical…

I guess a direct quote still is not enough for you since you would rather hear Doug filtered through Ingrid and Bob and ignore Doug’s own words.

iggy

35   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 9:28 am

Chris- Here is an example
This past Sunday we looked at video number three which is called Trees. I would like to talk about that a little bit here.

What is it that is so dangerous about the teaching on the video Trees? The thing that I see as being so dangerous is that Mr. Bell is about 95% right on what he says. Basically the point of the video is that we need to be doing something as Christians. This is a great point, we do need to be doing something. He also says we need to be spending our lives in service, also a great point. However it goes astray about the middle of the video when Mr. Bell states that we are pretty much doing nothing if what we are doing is spending our time trying to get people to believe the way we do. Here is what I heard with his comments, as did the others at church without my prompting. They heard Rob Bell say that evangelism is a waste of time. Rather than evangelize Rob would assert that we need to spend our time bringing heaven on earth and partnering with God to restore this fallen creation and transform the world into the kind of creation God intended it to be. He states at one point in the video that an ancient Jewish saying says that our good works are the seeds that are planting the trees in Eden. He then pronounces a benediction at the end that encourages us to plant the trees of paradise with our good works.

Another disturbing thing is that Mr. Bell goes so far as to say that Jesus condemned the practice of teaching others to believe as we believe. My response is, “He did?” Is the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20) a condemnation of us teaching people to believe what we believe, or is it a command to do exactly that? Rob says a lot of Christians sit around waiting on a future hope, waiting for creation to be redeemed by Jesus. He says that he believes that Jesus is going to redeem creation as well, but he believes he will do it through us. However scripture says something totally different. Let’s look at what scripture says here.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
Titus 2:11-15

And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
Revelation 21:5

While it is plain to see that we are supposed to do good works as Mr. Bell asserts, we see that waiting for the appearing of Christ is in fact a Biblical mandate. Our reason for living holy, and being good, is because God is holy and good and is coming back for us, not so that we can restore the fallen world, because God is going to recreate this fallen world. Rob condemns this future hope we wait for as being a false motivation in the Christian walk. Scripture however declares it to be so (in far more places than that just Titus and Revelation). I am concerned for the church as a whole because this is a false gospel. Mr. Bell’s church at one point during a phone conversation told me personally that the Gospel we believe in was not the Gospel. Granted the person I was speaking with was an Associate Pastor and not Rob himself, but none the less Mars Hill Bible Church said they didn’t believe that what I was getting at was the gospel. So in this phone conversation what was I getting at. Here is what I said.

I am laying on the street dying from being run over by a car. I look you in the face and tell you that I am scared and that I don’t want to die and go to hell. What would you say to me. The Pastor told me that they (Mars Hill) did not believe that was the Gospel. He then proceeded to tell me that the Gospel was learning to live in communion with God here and now and help restore fallen creation. Which is the exact message of the Nooma video called Trees. What does scripture say about that?

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:6-9

So Mr. Bell in this instance teaches a different Gospel. What should our response be? This is why I am concerned for the church as a whole. But why specifically am I concerned about the C&MA. Well the easy answer is to point out that there are churches inside the C&MA that are extensively using Mr. Bell’s teachings as sound, solid, biblical stuff. I would assert that this should not be so. That not only should this not be so, but his teachings should be forbidden from being used in any other manner other than for exposing heresy. But let’s just go out on a limb and say that Mr. Bell’s gospel is the same. What about his renouncing us waiting on a future hope? Well that teaching IS Biblical and the C&MA has long recognized that it is. Not only do we feel that it is Biblical we feel so strongly about it that we feel it is a VITAL truth. I present point 11 from our statement of faith for your consideration.

11. The Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent and will be personal, visible, and pre-millennial. This is the believer’s blessed hope and is a vital truth, which is an incentive to holy living and faithful service (Hebrews 10:37, Luke 21:27, Titus 2:11-14).

Will we as a church, a denomination, and as individual believers stand up for the truth? Or will we continue to allow false teachings, heresy, to be taught in our churches? I know that I may get a great deal of response about this post. I will be more than happy to chat, and even happier to sit down and watch Trees with you. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. Mr. Bell has many other videos distorting the truth. Included is one named Bullhorn where Rob aggressively attacks evangelism, specifically aiming at stranger evangelism and street evangelism. A.W. Tozer became a Christian because of a street preacher preaching on the street. William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army, was a street preacher. Glenn Tingley (hope I spelled that right) was a street preacher and great Christian leader inside the C&MA. And our own founder, Dr. A.B. Simpson, founded the C&MA on street preaching to immigrant dock workers. Rather than attack evangelism methods used by these great men to produce lasting Kingdom results, we ought to be out using those methods which God says is calculated to bring about revival. No one is going to get saved from me doing good works, which are important, but they will be saved by the preaching of the Gospel.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:13-17

36   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 9:52 am

PB.

Rather than attack evangelism methods used by these great men to produce lasting Kingdom results, we ought to be out using those methods which God says is calculated to bring about revival.

I don’t think you get it… no one is attacking evangelism… only certain methods… street preaching can be used, but what type of preaching is it… is it hate filled condemnation and judgment and not gospel? Is it giving just half the gospel? That is what I have encountered…

“You are going to hell”… that is all that is preached on many corners… shoot I get that at work from angry coworkers and relative… they tell me to “go to hell” at times are they preaching a revival?

Also, this revival… on occasion I see swellings we can call revivals… yet, most often, there is no real revival… As I have lived and gone to these revivals the same people get saved and then go home and do not change… that is not revival at all…

True revival does not come from “preaching” but by hearing…

If you read and understand what Paul teaches in Romans when he states; “faith comes from hearing the message,” yet then goes on to state,

Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

It is by Grace we are saved by the Word of Christ… it is not by the works of preaching… don’t you get that? Paul is stating that it is not just hearing, becuase someone preaches, but that God chose a remnant by Grace…

True revival is God’s grace changing someones heart.. not a guy with a blowhorn on the street shouting condemnation and judging others… It is by the Power of the Holy Spirit and God’s grace that comes down on a person… it is all God and not us. We rae to scatter the seed and water it, but God makes it grow and bear His fruit.

iggy

37   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 18th, 2008 at 9:55 am

PB,

Thanks for the the very concise response.

How does your perception of what Rob said change when I say that Rob was not saying “We shouldn’t try to get people to believe what we believe rather we should show our good works to the world and have them glorify our father in heaven”?

I may be wrong to assume this; but based on your lengthy response you are probably teaching on the dangers of the NOOMA videos at your church.

If this is the case, than you are not representing an unbiased opinion to your church. Which in turn would not allow them to have an objective opinion. The premise is already been set that you are not in favor of this teaching.

Furthermore anybody who uses NOOMA videos for sound biblical teaching in a church service is perhaps not using them for their intended purposes…conversation starters not doctrinal dissertations.

38   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 10:05 am

Iggy….quotes from the interview….

“There is no culture or religion that holds God in complete isolation or purity…there is always the act of the Spirit that is outside of our religious systems…that what we believe is the end of the story and there is nothing else that God will contribute to the world-

“how God is expressed in buddhism..hinduism…those are not …they are a school of thought embedded in a particular cultural setting…and so I think someone could say..I can see how God is expressed, talked about, understood in through these schools of thought…they are quite helpful and they are not at all in contrast to my Christianity.”

39   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 10:16 am

PB,

I gave you Doug’s direct quote that he stated that he is not a Universalist…

I see that also, you miss what Doug stated in the context above as you quoted him..

Again, answer me this time please… Was God then according to what you are saying is wrong with what Doug stated… Was God then NOT working in the heart of Cornelius as the bible states was happening… and what was Doug’s example in how God works in the “other” be them of another religion?

Are you denying then that God does not work in unbelievers hearts to bring them to salvation… as that is what Doug stated and was saying… Please…. again… you are listening to the reinterpreting of Ingrid and Bob and taking a couple of phrases he stated out of context…

Are you going to accept Doug’s straight forward answer that i presented?

Again, I see that you see what you want and hear what you want and do not hear and see what was stated. In fact I see that you consistently have placed salvation on the works of men… by their preaching… that men get saved! That is another gospel for salvation is of God and from God and is God alone… It is His works that saved us and preaching never saved anyone… If it does then we are saved by works… and that would be works of men.

iggy

40   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 10:20 am

Iggy,

I directly quoted this from Doug’s words…So Doug restated later on his blog that he is not a Universalist, but his quotes from two different radio interviews state very clearly that he is…

Maybe the problem is with the definition of the term Universalist….What Doug thinks it means in his context, what you think it means, and what I think it means. I think if you believe, as Doug stated, that all people are going to have the same experience with God entering into the ‘forevermore’ as he calls it, that is a pretty clear statement.

41   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 10:31 am

PB,

There is no culture or religion that holds God in complete isolation or purity…there is always the act of the Spirit that is outside of our religious systems…that what we believe is the end of the story and there is nothing else that God will contribute to the world

What religion then holds God in complete isolation or purity? Tell me which one, please… that I may convert to it!

there is always the act of the Spirit that is outside of our religious systems

Do you disagree with this? Then explain the conversion to Christ of the Gentiles!

that what we believe is the end of the story and there is nothing else that God will contribute to the world

So many people think that God only speaks to us Christians… but we see that God spoke to Cornelius a unconverted Gentile… in fact God sent and Angel to him… and you deny this?

“how God is expressed in buddhism..hinduism…those are not …they are a school of thought embedded in a particular cultural setting…and so I think someone could say..I can see how God is expressed, talked about, understood in through these schools of thought…they are quite helpful and they are not at all in contrast to my Christianity.”

I agree this one is hard to understand, if taken out of context.. but if one understands that he is not validating other religions in that they are equal to true faith, but that as in all religions, they teach aspects of God… and in that there may be some truth to and aspect of Hinduism that God can use to bring one to Him….

Again, you need to not be so myopic in your listening and look at a bigger context of what Doug is saying… it is like if I took a chapter like in Romans 11 and stated,

” I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

and took that all Paul taught was motivated by the sin of envy… he had been rejected so was angry…

that is what Ingrid and Bob did to Doug, and you are doing also… there was a huge context in which Doug stated things and you are picking and choosing things…

Now, is Doug perfect? In no way… are you? Do you hold perfect doctrine? I doubt it… as you are human and most likely have something wrong with your view… so why the heavy condemnation of Doug? Are you are more worthy sinner than Him at the Throne of Grace?

iggy

42   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 10:37 am

PB,

Maybe the problem is with the definition of the term Universalist….What Doug thinks it means in his context, what you think it means, and what I think it means.

This is true… there are differing types of Universalism… I am a universal atonement… or rather I believe in the “Propitiation” as opposed to what so many teach about Jesus blood “covering” our sin… I see He literally took all man kinds sin away at the Cross…

Yet, to deny a direct and clear quote…

OK, have you ever listened to the interview with Matt Slick?

http://carmpodcasting.blogspot.com/2007/10/matt-slick-and-doug-paget-discuss.html

Go and listen to Doug in not such a hostile environment. WoTM was a joke… it was not an interview… I suggest tossing that Todd Friedel hit and run interview a farce on both sides as Todd sounded like he knew nothing of Christianity also!

iggy

43   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 18th, 2008 at 10:46 am

Pastor Boy,
I would have to agree with Rob on evangelism. During my bible college days I had to memorize a very disturbing gospel presentation called Evangelism Explosion. I actually went into New York city and shared this less than attractive presentation. Many people in the parks said a prayers that day. I went on a missions trip to New Mexico(what I am about to share I am not at all proud of) I was involved in numerous VBS. Several children came to the Lord that day. My presentation to them was the story of the three crosses. Basically, saying accept Jesus or you will burn in Hell. One little girl was bawling as she told me that she wanted to pray to Jesus because she did not want to burn in Hell! Wow, I can not believe I did this! Why? Because all those years growing up and in bible college I had it all wrong! The message of the gospel is not to save people from Hell. If that is the only reason they come to Jesus than they miss out on true authentic faith! Throughout the entire New Testament show me one person who came to Jesus that did not have a need? Show me one passage of someone who did not have a need that Jesus walked up to and said turn or burn? Saving someone from Hell was not a part of his evangelism. He showed them love. He showed them mercy and grace. He simply forgave them. No record of them praying a magic prayer. My concern with the magic prayer is it just words. The thief on the cross realized he was on a cross next to a holy God. he did nothing and Jesus invited him to paradise! What we believe at Mars Hill Bible Church(I have heard Rob preach this many times) is everyone is hurting needing to be rescued. Jesus can rescue you. You have to realize a need to come to Jesus. A man lying on the street almost dead could come to Jesus if he realizes his need otherwise it is a prayer to stay out of Hell and that is not the gospel. Just a couple of weeks ago Robs brother shared his story. Part of his story is the day he came to Jesus! We had a preacher a few weeks ago talk about the prayer he prayed!
I can not address your questions on the Nooma Trees. I have not watched it. I have taken theology classes at Mars before. I was shocked! I was looking for some new information to chew on. It was nothing different than what i had been taught at Baptist Bible College!
Rob does not believe that our works get us into heaven. However, your salvation is more than a prayer! If you have truly acknowledged Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, your works or fruit will show it!

44   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 18th, 2008 at 11:03 am

The message of the gospel is not to save people from Hell. If that is the only reason they come to Jesus than they miss out on true authentic faith!

I can not address your questions on the Nooma Trees.

The sleeve cover from NOOMA 3 Trees says…

We want to know why we are here. If our lives really matter. How our religion is relevant to this life. Today. We want to understand what significance this minute, hour, week, month, and year has to our lives. To our world. We need a God who cares about this life, in this world, right now. We want to understand why everything we think, everything we say, and everything we do matters. We don’t want to just sit back and wait for something to happen or someday to come. We want to know if all the choices we make now will shape our world and lives for eternity. Because we want our lives to have meaning today, and our lives today to have meaning forever.

Erica for not having seen Trees I think you nailed to point pretty well.

45   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 11:33 am

Chris, and others…
My post on Trees is quoted from my friend, Jerry,( I wanted to make that clear) who is preaching a series on NOOMA videos because he is concerned that they are being used in pulpits that he knows of. My writing earlier on CRN was on the videos “Bullhorn” “Rich” and I forgot the other one, where Bell says that it is Peters lack of faith in Peter that caused him to sink…all of which were summarily shot down.

Erica:

I agree that the Gospel is not turn or burn, that the Christian life is so much more than being saved from hell, that we need to live a life that bears fruit for Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. But this must be balanced with a Gospel presentation that shows man’s need, which is ultimately to be saved from sin first and foremost. Without being saved from sin, we cannot produce fruits of repentance. Without a Godly sorrow that leads to repentance, we cannot bear the fruit of the new life that Bell speaks about.

46   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 11:47 am

PB,

I’m going to have to disagree with you, as well here.

The Gospel is not simply a fire insurance policy, which – for all intents and purposes – is what much of modern Christianity – especially the ‘Reformed’ branch – tends to treat it as. When the first complaint about a Gospel message is that it didn’t talk enough about ’sin’ and ‘hell’, then it’s missed the point.

If you examine Jesus’ teaching, his number one subject was ‘the kingdom’ – not ‘what happens when you die’. The kingdom is a living issue, not a dying one. When your acceptance of the gospel is based on hope of heaven or fear of hell, then you’ve not fully accepted the message of the Gospel or your place in the kingdom. If it is all about “there, then” and not “here, now”, then Christianity is no more than a mental exercise.

This is not to say that the resurrection is not something desirable, or an ultimate goal – as Paul says in Philippians 3 – but the Gospel is a call to live the life of one already saved, not to wait around and die to obtain salvation.

What Bell is talking about is very much in line with the Hebrew mind and context of Jesus rather than the later Greek/Western interpretations which solidified during the Renaissance (in the Catholic Chruch) and the Reformation.

For example: When does eternal life begin? Too many churches I know would suggest that it begins when we die. Rather, ‘eternal life’ begins when you have accepted the Gospel of Jesus and its accompanying grace.

47   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 11:56 am

where Bell says that it is Peters lack of faith in Peter that caused him to sink…all of which were summarily shot down.

Then they didn’t understand the message Bell gave…

The source of that particular teaching is Ray VanderLaan, who picked it up from a number of Messianic Jewish sources and commentaries on first-century understanding of the relationship between rabbi (pre-70AD) and talmid.

From this source:

The decision to follow a rabbi as a talmid meant total commitment in the first century as it does today. Since a talmid was totally devoted to becoming like the rabbi he would have spent his entire time listening and observing the teacher to know how to understand the Scripture and how to put it into practice. Jesus describes his relationship to his disciples in exactly this way (Matt. 10:24-25; Luke 6:40) He chose them to be with him (Mark 3:13-19) so they could be like him (John 13:15).

Most students sought out the rabbis they wished to follow. This happened to Jesus on occasion (Mark 5:19; Luke 9:57). There were a few exceptional rabbis who were famous for seeking out their own students. If a student wanted to study with a rabbi he would ask if he might ‘follow’ the rabbi. The rabbi would consider the students potential to become like him and whether he would make the commitment necessary. It is likely most students were turned away. Some of course were invited to ‘follow me’. This indicated the rabbi believed the potential talmid had the ability and commitment to become like him. It would be a remarkable affirmation of the confidence the teacher had in the student. In that light, consider whether the disciples of Jesus were talmidim as understood by the people of his time. They were to be ‘with’ him (Mark 3:13-19); to follow him (Mark 1:16-20); to live by his teaching (John 8:31); were to imitate his actions (John 13:13-15); were to make everything else secondary to their learning from the rabbi (Luke 14:26).

This may explain Peter’s walking on water (Matt. 14:22-33). When Jesus (the rabbi) walked on water, Peter (the talmid) wanted to be like him. Certainly Peter had not walked on water before nor could he have imagined being able to do it. However, if the teacher, who chose me because he believed I could be like him, can do it so must I. And he did! It was a miracle but he was just like the rabbi! And then…he doubted. Doubted what? Traditionally we have seen he doubted Jesus’ power. Maybe, but Jesus was still standing on the water. I believe Peter doubted himself, or maybe better his capacity to be empowered by Jesus. Jesus response ‘why did you doubt’ (14:31) then means ‘why did you doubt I could empower you to be like me’?

That is a crucial message for the talmid of today. We must believe that Jesus calls us to be disciples because he knows he can so instruct, empower, and fill us with his Spirit that we can be like him (at least in our actions). We must believe in ourselves! Otherwise we will doubt that he can use us and as a result we will not be like him.

48   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 18th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Chris L.

Thanks for pointing that out. Recently I showed a Rabbi the “Dust” NOOMA and his take was percisely the same. Peter doubted that he could be like his Rabbi.

49   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 18th, 2008 at 12:50 pm

I watched the Nooma video Dust last week. I have never heard that passage presented that way before. However, it made a lot of sense. Is it possible that some passages can have more than one meaning or application?

50   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 18th, 2008 at 1:44 pm

Erica,

There are multiple interpretations of certain passages in scripture. In fact you can find multiple commentaries that are quite varied in their understanding of certain passages.

This is why understanding the culture and customs is so imperative to getting a full view of scripture. I’m continually learning this. When I teach on a certain passage I use multiple commentaries and multiple translations to get the fullest view I can.

It’s interesting that the ODM’s continually hammer the point that those who teach are called to a higher standard but yet they have such a myopic view of scripture it’s obvious that they (some) lack a knowledge of history, linguistics, and translation techniques. Which ultimately limits their ability to teach scripture contextually.

51   Erica Martino    http://joemartino.name/erica
January 18th, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Chris
I still use commentaries and various study aids when looking at a passage. It is true, I can search various different commentaries and they all have a different point of view. It is mind boggling that various different people stick to one interpretation. There are a lot of things growing up I was taught that was wrong that I questioned in my head but never researched it on my own. I wonder some times if certain people out there really do the research needed to understand a text? I think a lot more people than me get hung up on the way they were always taught and never search scripture for their own answer. Maybe they are s cared I don’t know.

52   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

I am writing a book called “An Emergent Manifesto of Truth” unfortunately, I cant find any contributors.

53   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

I am writing a book called “An Emergent Manifesto of Truth” unfortunately, I cant find any contributors.

Apparently you’ve not asked all that many, then. I can give you names and addresses of several who could contribute…

54   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Shoot em my way.

Remember, please, the title. My problem is finding any emergent that is willing to stake a flag in and say ‘this is Truth’

55   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 18th, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Well according to the “What’s my theology quiz” I took I’m officially emergent. I have lots of truth. What do you want to talk about?

56   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 18th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

You might start with Dan Kimball and Bob Hyatt, as they both associate with Emerging/Emergent Christianity. I think Mark Driscoll more associates with EmergING then EmergENT. Scot McKnight would be another guy to contact, along with Andrew Jones.

I can think of several who don’t shy from “truth”…

57   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 18th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

Okay Chris and Chris L

Just submit your point of view about whichever portion of emergent or emerging truth you choose. Email it to me, and I will edit it and add it to my book.

58   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 19th, 2008 at 10:03 am

PB – if you’ve got a list of questions, please post them – also, I’d suggest (of the ones listed above) that you contact Scot McKnight, as he is pretty versed in the ECM and can give you the range of responses you would likely receive from ECM-like churches along with his own response.

59   Tim Reed, Owosso MI    http://churchvoices.com
January 19th, 2008 at 11:04 am

Remember, please, the title. My problem is finding any emergent that is willing to stake a flag in and say ‘this is Truth’

I would suggest that your problem isn’t finding emergents that will say “this is truth” but in talking to emergents at all. My guess would be that you’re listening to anti-emergents talk about emergents. Which is great if you don’t give a crap about truth and only want to score rhetorical points.

60   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pm

PB,

The big difference is this…

We see truth as true…

We do not add “absolute” to truth in the bible to make it more true.

It is like a True/False test

Most are like this:

1. True 2. False

But, what most Christians do to biblical truth is this.

1. True 2. False 3. Absolutely True

So, how can something that is true… be more true… it is either truth or a lie.

But, modernism adds “absolute” to biblical truth as if it makes the bible more true than it already it.

It is not the denial of Truth… or even absolutes.

The bible is either true or false. But, to add to it something that is man made to make it MORE true is really lacking faith in God’s word.

iggy

61   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 19th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Tim,

I think you would be surprised how many emergents I know and are good friends with. Many of them are so involved in the conversation that they are unwilling to say that truth is truth-even Biblical truth. It gets lost in the nuances of ‘what is truth?’ with many of them.

Ignatious,

I don’t think that is a fair assesment. But your perception of that perceived truth makes it absolute for you?

62   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
January 19th, 2008 at 2:20 pm

PB,

Your experience with “emergents”, I think, shines a bit more truth on the observation that ‘emergent/emerging’ is not analogous to a ‘denomination’ (which is how ODM’s tend to treat it), but rather as a response to a change in the culture (both in style and from modern to post-modern). There are some ECM churches that came from liberal backgrounds, and – therefore – tend to be liberal. There are others which are conservative, and – therefore – tend to be conservative.

63   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 19th, 2008 at 6:26 pm

PB,

Scot McKnight would be my best suggestion on ECM questions as well.

Be careful though; “My boy is wicked smart” (a movie reference of my own)

64   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
January 19th, 2008 at 6:39 pm

PB,

since “Absolute truth is at best an 1860 development… Truth being the Person… is not some abstract thought detached from Jesus… Truth is Truth…

How do I get that?

Let your yes by yes and your no be no…

Now also, if you add “Absolute” to truth, you then need deal with “lesser truths”… which in my book are called “lies”… but if you add “absolute” then you must deal with lesser not so absolute truths.

Also, show me in the Bible that Truth is ever described in such a way? So, again this is adding to the definition of “truth” in the bible.

If something is “true” it cannot be made more true or less true and remain true.

It is like “unique”… it is or it is not… to say something is really unique is redundant. Like Chili con care with meat… does it make the chili more meaty to say meat with meat?

This adding of “absolute” also as I stated creates an “abstractness” to Truth… Jesus is Truth incarnate… for He is The Truth… to state that He is absolute truth does not make Jesus more Truthy… or whatever…

But, it does then make it that Truth can somehow be separate from Jesus as if Truth is some absolute abstract thought… then it places “Thought” equal with Jesus… meaning that Jesus and man’s imagination are then equal… this then makes man’s mind and thinking apart from God… divine in its own right… and that is dangerous theology!

Man is in no way equal to God, but Plato, who taught dualism… which is at the root of all this taught that “thought” was more real than “material” and that is Gnosticism.

Truth is truth and does not need Gnosticism to make it more true than the Bible states it is. Again this is dangerous stuff as if we add we dilute.

Note, if I am speaking in the realm of “philosophy” I will use the “absolute” idea, but to bring someone to the point that when they meet Jesus that absolute becomes personalized in the Person of Jesus and becomes, simply Truth. For it is from Jesus all Truth comes.

iggy

65   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 19th, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Re: “My boy is wicked smart.”
~I’m guessing Good Will Hunting?

66   Chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
January 20th, 2008 at 1:02 pm

And Joe Martino wins the “you get nothing” prize for answering correctly.

67   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
January 20th, 2008 at 1:08 pm

How ya’ like dem apples?

68   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 20th, 2008 at 1:36 pm

I got her number…how do you like dem apples?

69   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 20th, 2008 at 10:34 pm

For the beginning of the conversation “An Emergent Manifesto of Truth”

Bring your comments and questions and discussion.

I going to go see about a girl….

70   pastorboy    http://www.thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com
January 20th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

The Emergent Manifesto of Truth

71   F Whittenburg    http://www.christiannewbirth.com
January 22nd, 2008 at 8:08 pm

Pastorboy said:”Bring your comments and questions and discussion.”

Hello Pastorboy,
Here is my contribution to your book on “emergence / emergent behavior”. I cannot find your email address so I will post it here and you can just cut and paste the text of the comment section. I am going to share with you my observations on “emergent behavior” from the scientific perspective. In this study, I applied well documented “emergent concepts” that have been theorized since the middle 1,800’s to a hypothetical organization to see what one might look like. Here is a good scientific explanation I found of “emergent concept and behaviour”. http://www.answers.com/topic/emergence-1 . You would do well to read it after you have read this. It may clear away some of the mystery surrounding “emergent behaviour” and give you some insight.
“An emergent concept (EC) is a slight variation on consensus reality that is accepted as plausible. The hallmarks of an emergent concept, as opposed to some categories of memes (urban myths, or viruses of the mind) are that EC are increasingly accepted as truth or possibility, based upon other empirical or anecdotal evidence in the mind of the believer or society (in its subsets) as a whole. EC can be viewed as fad, or common causal reality building. EC have no relationship to truth or fact, but are simply engines bringing individual concepts of truth into the mainstream.” (Bold added to existing text)
For example, if a group of “social engineers” applied “emergent concepts” to an organization of people, that organization would not have any real need or desire to understand truth, search for truth, defend truth, or embrace truth because the “emergent model” is designed to “create” truth. This is similar to consensus reality where multiple views on something like religion are all tossed together in a conversation and discussed until what is agreed upon finally as “reality” by the organization or group becomes the new “truth”. The consensus is easily accepted by everyone in the group as “plausible truth” because all members had a hand in creating it. If you are on the outside studying organizations applying “emergent concepts” it is interesting to watch, but to someone inside that organization it would be almost impossible for them to see what was being done to them. You could give them the impression that “emergence” that they are a part of is actually a representation of a little fresh budding leaf of beautiful new growth. They would be like happy, busy laboratory rats in some big social engineering experiment working through a maze. All they would know is that every time something “changes” or “shifts” in the paradigm then there is a new “truth” to be discovered and then they start looking forward to constantly changing “truths” with new “truths” constantly being discovered. This could theoretically go on indefinitely, as long as everything is constantly kept changing and shifting. A whole new paradigm could result.
Here is another scientific explanation of “emergent behaviour” from the same site: http://www.answers.com/topic/emergence-1
“An emergent behaviour or emergent property can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviours as a collective. If emergence happens over disparate size scales, then the reason is usually a causal relation across different scales. In other words there is often a form of top-down feedback in systems with emergent properties. The processes from which emergent properties result may occur in either the observed or observing system, and can commonly be identified by their patterns of accumulating change, most generally called ‘growth’. Why emergent behaviours occur include: intricate causal relations across different scales and feedback, known as interconnectivity. The emergent property itself may be either very predictable or unpredictable and unprecedented, and represent a new level of the system’s evolution. The complex behaviour or properties are not a property of any single such entity, nor can they easily be predicted or deduced from behaviour in the lower-level entities: they are irreducible. No physical property of an individual molecule of air would lead one to think that a large collection of them will transmit sound.“ (bold added to existing text)

As with the air molecule analogy, one individual with one mind set and purpose could only do so much on their own, but just imagine a whole world that was driven to one “purpose” and vision like one big global brain thinking the same thoughts.

“ According to an emergent perspective, intelligence emerges from the connections between neurons, and from this perspective it is not necessary to propose a “soul” to account for the fact that brains can be intelligent, even though the individual neurons of which they are made are not.”

By applying the concept of “emergence” to all of humanity, humankind theoretically could “emerge” into a whole new “reality”. Possibly a new world order, or even an attempt to bring Heaven to earth? (Genesis 11:4-7 KJV). I know that sounds very unrealistic, because to achieve something like that, you would have to teach all humanity a new way to “think” in terms of groups (i.e. group think). Someone once said: “I would like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony”. To be of maximum effectiveness, you would have to teach all in the emergent organization how to focus and center their thoughts and prayers the most effectively. Think of the possibilities. The Bible says that nothing would be restrained from man if all mankind could imagine it.

And the Lord said, Behold, the people is ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now NOTHING will be restrained from them, which they IMAGINED to do (Genesis 11:6 KJV).

Here is an interesting link I found: http://www.humanemergence.org/

I personally though believe that consensus reality as it has been used in history has been shown to be a flawed way to come to a clear concept of the “reality” to be embraced by society. Example: All the great scholars have reached a consensus; we believe that in reality, the earth is “flat”! Sir Isaac Newton is a heretic and a madman that must be hunted down and killed because he thinks the earth is round!

For “emergent behaviour” to manifest in the organization, you would first need to create unity and drive in the organization with a single purpose and vision. Then you would have to drive out all that are not in unity and at the same time shield the target organization from the dissenters until the desired behaviour has time to “emerge”. You can then go back and deal with the resistors later, after the emergent behaviour has begun manifesting. You could reach out and offer them one last chance to join you.
“On the other hand, merely having a large number of interactions is not enough by itself to guarantee emergent behaviour; many of the interactions may be negligible or irrelevant, or may cancel each other out. In some cases, a large number of interactions can in fact work against the emergence of interesting behaviour, by creating a lot of “noise” to drown out any emerging “signal”; the emergent behaviour may need to be temporarily isolated from other interactions before it reaches enough critical mass to be self-supporting.”
One unique thing about “emergent behaviour”, is it can be observed in small groups also, without a centralized structure and command.
“Thus it is not just the sheer number of connections between components which encourages emergence; it is also how these connections are organised. A hierarchical organisation is one example that can generate emergent behaviour (a bureaucracy may behave in a way quite different to that of the individual humans in that bureaucracy); but perhaps more interestingly, emergent behaviour can also arise from more decentralized organisational structures, such as a marketplace. In some cases, the system has to reach a combined threshold of diversity (all faiths), organization (small groups), and connectivity (love, social justice, environment, etc.) before emergent behaviour appears.” (bold words in parentheses added).
I have seen really no one discuss “emergent concepts and behaviours” on any blogs from a scientific perspective. Am I the only one that finds this stuff fascinating?
F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com/whenfaithcame.html

72   F Whittenburg    http://www.christiannewbirth.com
January 23rd, 2008 at 12:44 am

Hell Chris L,

Thank you for letting me use your blog to transfer such a long comment for “pastorboy”. I could not find an email address on his website to send him the information. I have since been able to contact him with some information on the scientific aspects of “emergent concepts and behaviours”. You are welcome to delete the comment now if you want too. Thank you again for letting me comment on your blog.

F Whittenburg
http://www.christiannewbirth.com

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