One has to wonder if Chris Rosebrough is Slowly Becoming Catholic or joining the Evanjellyfish of the Apostate Nation with this piece that does wonderful impersonation of a batter striking out. Calling on Irenaeus (who is called the first great Catholic theologian) Chris tries to make the case that sites like SOL and ??N are just part of a long history of discernment ministries. He compares ??N to Irenaeus. Now, I’ll let you do a little study and compare the two. Chris makes a nice funny where he says some may have accused Irenaeus of having a PDM (Parchment Discernment Ministry). The strikeout is impressive when you consider it is 881 words long. The last paragraph is a prayer and who can be against those, so I took those 80 words out, which if you divide the remaining 771 by three strikes (the number necessary for an out) you get 257 outs. That’s enough for one team to have played 9.5 games. Impressive.
Oh, here’s two little differences to begin with.
1. Irenaeus was actually considered a pastor (ordained and held in the highest regard) by the people above him and around him.
2. His church had more than 6 people in it. Size isn’t everything but come on, it needs to be considered at some point, doesn’t it?
Comparing what the first great Catholic Theologian wrote to the tabloid tripe that comes from the EDM’s is downright silly. Mr. Rosebrough fails to be honest enough to mention that many who criticize the wanna be teachers and true trouble makers willingly make a distinction between real discernment and self linking. He also fails to mention Frank Turk’s comment about the Bible calling for Biblical elders not EDM/ADM/ODM’s.
So in a clear umpire voice, I say, “You’re out!”
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
63 Comments(+Add)
Can you say self-inflated?
The mind of Irenaeus compared to these people? It’s kinda funny.
His robust theological anthropology sounds downright like Rob Bell…”The glory of God is a [human] fully alive”.
If these people actually understood him they’d say he was a “man pleaser” who taught a false gospel.
And so much for “sola scriptura”…The dear Bishop of Lyon held that the bishops were the only safe interpreters of Scripture.
I forgot though…this is from the same person who claims that PSA was taught by all the Fathers.
Yeah, I thought the author of the original article had some formal training in Church history but the more he writes the more I wonder.
Unlike Joe and his ‘pastor’ who desire to rewrite church history, starting with the Bible…
The inability of EDMs to distinguish between opposition to their *methods* as opposed to their *purpose* is remarkable.
How can we make this any clearer?
Fight for the faith, yes, but drop the insulting nicknames, the insults, the schadenfreude, the shallow thinking, the poor logic, the disordered thinking, the tabloid silliness, and the overall LACK OF INTEGRITY.
To paraphrase an old quote… I know Irenaeus (or Ravi Zacharias, Hank Hanegraaf, etc.), I was friends with Irenaeus…
And the EDMs are no Irenaeus.
Period.
Chris R. prayed:
Chris R’s prayer obviously isn’t in God’s sovereign will. And maybe Chris should have prayed that God would not have allowed those who hate God’s Word to spring up to begin with and the church could have avoided all this trouble.
Throughout history the church has been filled with heresy. Luther’s theology is filled with heresy. Calvin’s theology is a study in heresy. Ken Silva’s theology says baptism is purely symbolic and Rosebrough says baptism saves. Whose the heretic?
And this statement from that same prayer:
That statement in many corners of the orthodox “Word lovers” world is heresy in and of itself since many do not believe the Word in the plain meaning. But if you read closely I personally see Richard Abanes as the main target silently woven in the post. Wasn’t he the one that used the word “cult”?
I am waiting for the new ODM movie to be released. It’s called:
“Irenaeus and Me”
Actually the movie title should be:
“Me, Myself, and Irenaeus”
I do have to say I give Chris R an “A” for aesthetics…
His little “collect” apes the forms of the BCP…
At least he has taste.
FRUEH’S BIBLICAL DICTIONARY
Heresy – In early church years it was associated with anything that added or subtracted from salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. In latter years and continuing unto today it’s colloquial meaning is whatever you think it is.
Summation – If you think it’s heresy…it is!
This is hilarious.
NC, good call on noting how the good bishop consolidated all authority within the existing bishops (and thereby paving the way for papal authority and the “whore” known as the RCC, something Chris R would flee far from) and yet Chris sees no problem holding Irenaeus up as an example of what he and others do. Not only do they proof-text scripture they proof-pluck historical church figures.
Another nuance obviously lost on Chris R is that Irenaeus had a particular heresy he was vetting and it was in the context of a known, lived community. He was their pastor, their bishop! He has a pastoral concern over HIS flock, the flock God entrusted him with.
Discernment divorced from lived community is nothing more than gossip.
Rick, amen.
Ireneaus was speaking out against a specific cancer in the early church – the belief that Christ was not fully human, did not die and rise again for the sins of the world.
In his world you either confess that Jesus is Lord or you do not. End of story. Everything else is fluff.
Since I believe Christ had a fully human body, but I have questions about a dual nature, does that make me an heretic?
If you answer yes, than you must publicly rebuke me, call me names, use corrosive labels, and openly and forcefull proclaim my “unregenerate”. I await your response, but I will say this:
“Unless I am convicted by scripture and plain reason – I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils or ODMs or blogs, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen.”
I await my fate…
Rick, at least you got the most important thing right: You willingly submit to the judgment of the magisterium. Let us give thanks that in the absence of God we have ODM’s to judge us rightly.
Discernment divorced from lived community is nothing more than gossip.
Bingo!!!!
Chad…
the other thing is that these folks clearly are trying to be the new magisterium.
Proving once again the post-modern insight that “communities make meaning”. They can wear the garb of sola this and that, but they have a priori commitments and decisions they follow regardless of their charade of “objectivity”, etc. etc.
Pictures taken with the pastor when baptized = HERESY.
Baptism saves = ORTHODOXY
There will be a quiz.
Rick,
you know what would be really interesting…
Seeing how long it would take for those folk to turn on each other if the ADM’s were able to “defeat/silence” all their favorite whipping boys.
My money is on less than a day…
Just look at the SBC…they “won” their “conservative resurgence” and now they’re eating each other alive over…well…everything.
On one hand the size of a church should not matter, but if it is not growing, then I wonder if it is healthy or not. Now how long has Ken been pastoring his church of 6 or 8 or whatever? Is there a point… a year where someone who holds him accountable might state that it is not working out?
Now the other thing is that it is God that makes things grow. Then why is it that someone who has been pastoring a church for of 3 years still has only the few that decided to stay and yet has not grown beyond that point… maybe… just maybe… God is not growing that church for a reason….
Now there are other factors such as how the pastor is viewed by his own community… not meaning that in a man- pleasing way… but is he considered a man of good reputation? (the bible states this is a condition for an overseer so I would assume it would be one for a pastor also..)
iggy
A closer examination of the “rich history” of discerners, specifically of Irenaeus, we read:
“Irenaeus wrote that the only way for Christians to retain unity was to humbly accept one doctrinal authority–episcopal councils.”
This teaching of Iraneaus, as well as his list of apostolic succession, not only colored his view as Catholic, it also eventually gave way to support for the papacy.
Why do I always get the feeling that Inrid and Chris R. and others have some sympathy for the Roman Catholic Church? Ingrid has written some things like that.
It’s just extremely inconsistent to hyperventilate over Rick Warren but show grace and mild affection for Roman Catholicism, mostly based on their liturgical worship and pro-life activism.
* I have it on good authority that John Calvin was not pro-life, even concerning living adults.
Or three year olds. Do the research, it’s scary.
#18 – I have no problem with Ireneaus or any other Christian throughout ALL of church history being cited and used to learn something valuable about our faith. My beef with someone like Chris R using it, however, is that it is disingenuous. In truth, the church for him only began somewhere around the time of Luther’s 95 thesis and everything before that (and everything since that does not conform to conservative religiousity) is moot. Yet, he has no problem citing people he probably counts as heretics so long as they justify his own performance of the faith.
Citing people as doctrinal proof is as subjectively unbiblical as it can get. Choose who you like, quote him, and “poof!”, you have proof.
I love the “rich history” quip concerning the ministry of discernemt (not mentioned in sola scriptura
). I also have a rich history of Baptists which goes all the way back to John the Baptist. Remember, Jesus said he was the greatest!! 
John the Baptist trumps Irenaeus the discerner!!!!
I recall during the 40 Days of Purpose, or maybe in a follow up lesson from the book of James, that Rick Warren specifically quoting from Irenaeus. Hmm. Now CR is quoting from Irenaeus. Now I am suspicious of Warren.
Anytime I have ever chatted with Chris R he throws his favorite (and you might think the only one he knows) verse at me: To know nothing else but preach Christ crucified.
One of the many reasons I find this so highly ironic is that Irenaeus had a view of the atonement that highlighted Christ’s incarnation over and above the crucifixion. In the incarnation, God as man spreads salvation to us like an antibiotic, treating the disease of corruption by living sinlessly. Some would even argue that a rigid understanding of Irenaeus would make the crucifixion and resurrection moot.
Chris R, cite Irenaeus all you like. Maybe in 50 years you will be citing Rick Warren as a means to justify yourself.
I cite Rick Frueh:
Like valuing antiques, why is Irenaeus any more an authority than me when and if we agree? It’s because the more ancient, supposedly the more aligned with the early church, which supposedly is more aligned with Christ. I suggest the possiblity that the opposite may be true.
Precedent becomes an idol, but many “early theologians” disagreed, so precedent is multi-doctrinal. Was there any less deception back then? Only a clear and dispassionate study, and devotion, to the Scriptures personally can ultimately be used of God’s Spirit.
I can and have been convinced by men, some rightly and some wrongly, so although I may read what they have to say, I can only value what God shows me through His Word. I attempt to appreciate men’s views without being swayed by them or anointing them as inspired.
Rick,
His view is important because he, like you, was a man seeking to love God with heart, soul and mind. Any and all who do so are important and offer a voice that we should cherish. Christianity is not a faith that stands alone, detached from community. Irenaeus is important in the same way the community of a church is essential to our growing in faith. We need one another.
Heresy is born when we do not care what others have to say and depend solely on our own individual meanderings through Scripture or experience.
“he, like you, was a man seeking to love God with heart, soul and mind.”
You do not know that to be true of either of us. Here is a case in point. Chris R. quotes from another man as to what defines orthodoxy. And he summarizes hos position with this:
“Pieper and all confessional Lutherans define ‘true doctrine’ based upon the Augsburg Confession’s and Book of Concord’s summaries of sound Christian Biblical teaching.”
The Augsburg meeting was called from Italy and included contributions from electors, socially powerful, religious leaders, and an array of political figures. If you believe what that confession believes because you believe the corresponding doctrines in Scripture, why must you refer back to the 26th century rather than provide your own Biblical analysis?
In a way it is doctrinal plagiarism.
It was the 16th century, not the 26th – obviously.
I don’t care either way. I can learn as much from a heretic as a saint. I see all as gifts.
Men are men. I am a man, however I am in a much better position to evaluate this man’s spirituality and sincerity than I am someone who died hundreds of years ago.
That is why I am much more interested in the bed I sleep in than the one that says “Washington slept here”.
Would someone PLEASE explain to PB why this:
is not the same as this:
I seem to have lost my ability to explain things to a toddler.
EDM?
Entertainment Discernment Blog. It was offered up a few days ago by Chris L, I think.
#30 where did he say it?
Joe,
I agree the premise of CR’s post is rather laughable. I think you two points of contrast are unnecesarrily ad hominem.
Joe,
On Facebook. He is trying to make it sound as though Warren is inducing people to join his church with pictures of himself. While I hate any form of inducement, he is lying about the picture of himself. They are offering a photo of the person’s baptism along with a certificate – a perfectly normal and decent thing to do.
Ok, for you. I disagree. I think they are valid.
Neil,
I was thinking you and I should probably just assume that I’ll say something you’ll think is too far. It seems we dance the same steps often. In truth, I tire of it.
Chad,
then I can’t help. The best thing I ever did was unfriend him on facebook. Took lot’s of stress out of my life.
As am I, but, as you say, it probably isn’t gonna change.
I figure we have unity of purpose (defending the church against persecution from within) even though we don’t always have uniformity in method.
I am the first to point out ad hominen, and I have not shied from addressing Joe in this area. I have found Joe has become much more tempered and measured in his verbiage without losing his strength.
I did not consider either contrast as ad hominen at all. They were legitimate without being caustic.
My thoughts.
OK – just my first impression… and it’s not that big of a deal.
Oh actually Neil it probably will change. I’ll probably stop answering you. Neither one of those distinctions were personal attacks, they were pointing out true differences. I have a friend that plays professional baseball. He can hit a 95 mile an hour fastball and a 83 mile an hour curveball, I cannot. So he plays and I don’t. Pointing that out isn’t attacking me, it’s pointing out the facts. I find your desire to be PC at any and all costs to be unnecessary and distracting. I am sometimes reminded of a teacher I once worked with who told me that any and all papers by certain students should have criticism on them “so as to spur the student on.” The kids just stopped reading the feedback.
For the record I pretty much ignore all of you anymore… I just comment when I feel and say what I want… and then make fun of who I will…
So there… now go bite yourselves…
iggy
I mean that all in love… I truly love you all!
I agree the premise of CR’s post is laughable.
You can defriend someone on FB? Yay! Peace at last!
Why would a believer be against the hate crimes act which penalizes violence against people because of their views? And how ridiculous do believers look when they, WHO PEOFESS TO KNOW THE CREATOR GOD, bemoan that the government may restrict “free speech”?
This post on SoL reinforces the truth that some Christians are more American than Christian, and that they will do and say anything to avoid being persecuted for Christ.
And instead of the church being a voice against violence against all people, some have become entangled with the affairs of this world and thereby obscure the gospel itself, if they even know what that is anymore.
Most right-wing Christians in America today think that “Give me liberty or give me death!” is in the gospels in red letters.
The sermon I preached this past Sunday touched on this topic – the mistaken notion that any of us have “rights” to anything. That is Americanity (or Hannityism), not Christianity.
An Easter Economy for Easter People
The entire principle is showcased by the Jews saying “we are Abraham’s children” as a foundation for God’s favor. Jesus debunked that, but when you are offended by the words in red you just ignore them.
No one is taking our “free speech” away from us, it’s just a matter of how much persecution you are willing to endure. This whinning and complaining and murmering from Christians, disguised as standing up for our rights, is counter-productive to the gospel itself.
When believers complain about being in traffic due to a gay parade (Ingrid), it just openly reveals a disdain for the Scriptures. I am convinced that many ODMs have ripped out substantial sections of Scripture, even while they accuse others of doing just that.
“You who accuse others of ignoring Scripture, dost thou also do the same? (Paul)
*** There has not been much than can compare to the visceral hatred and verbal disdain for President Barak Obama that emanates from Christians. The cultural war brand of Christianity is anti-christ. (I hope I have been clear.
)
Is it bad that I get annoyed at traffic/road closings for things like a marathon or 5 k race?
Even if it’s raising money for cancer research?
#46
Don’t even think about it… I will find another way to cyber stalk you…
igs
“Size isn’t everything but come on, it needs to be considered at some point, doesn’t it?”
Can we ask your wife?
You want to post like a high schooler, then let’s act like high schoolers.
“For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. ” ~ Jesus
#52 – Absolutely breathtaking. I had never even considered it in that context, and Chris P. owes Joe and especially Erica a public apology.
#52 and #53.
Well, I think your words do a fine job of showing your heart.
Grace and Peace, sir.
Chris P.,
Seriously dude, I thought it unnecessary for Joe to bring up the size of a guy’s church and you go there.
What I originally thought was a bit of ad hominem on Joe’s part pales in comparison to this tripe.
Sorry Joe,
Good call Iggy!
Wow.
To the crooked all things appear crooked.
Chris P,
I am here. Ask way… What is your question?
ChrisP is a coward.
Men like Chris P. give us complentarians a bad name.
I wouldn’t worry about Chris P…
Now that he’s attained to the Godhead I’ve happily become an atheist.
I do not believe Chris P exists.
There is no Chris P.
Oh brother…Did I just read that?
*shakes his head and walks away*