Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. – Benjamin Franklin

Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the LORD your God.Leviticus 25:17

Part I: Laying the Groundwork
Part II: Principles and Strategic Choices

[Again realize, this is all exploratory in nature, and that I am not necessarily advocating this course of action at this point in time. My hope is to gain the wisdom of other voices to see if this avenue is a) fruitful; b) possible; and c) a better way forward than passivity. Some folks may not wish to comment, but can send me feedback via my Facebook mail account.]

The Laffer CurveThe Laffer Curve

As I noted in Part II, the key principle in “going Galt” (or, in the modified manner I’m sugesting – differing from Rand’s philosophy – in which the individual and the church have compassionate roles, while the government should not) is rooted in the Laffer Curve:

The KEY concept to “Going Galt” is to ruthlessly and quickly drive the Laffer Curve down on anything that is taxed.

What this means, practically, is eliminating the activities in your life which add taxes to the public coffers – AND, in deference to our guiding principles, to do so within the confines of the letter of the law.

Most of the taxes collected in America come from one of two sources: Individual Income Tax and Consumption Taxes (Direct an Indirect). The largest source of tax revenue is from individual income tax, and the second and third largest sources are Payroll Taxes and Corporate Income Taxes (which are both passed along to the consumer as increased prices of goods and services). Aside from these, the largest source of individual State taxes is Sales & Excise Taxes (paid directly by consumers at the point of sale).

In examining how to ’starve the beast’, let us first tackle reduction of Consumption Taxes:

Taxes by StateDave Ramsey on Steroids

Everyone, regardless of income level, can help starve the beast by drastically cutting consumption. This hits both Federal and State tax collection (see state-by-state tax chart).

For those of you familiar with Dave Ramsey or Larry Burkett, the basic formula is this: Stop buying stuff and get rid of your debt.

Expounding on this a bit, the basic premise is this: Limit your purchases to only the essentials (food, functional housing, functional clothing, basic utilities) and plow the rest of your money into eliminating consumer debt (first) and long-term debt (second) to become debt-free. Then, invest wisely.

To put this in a “Galt Frame”, consumption might work in some of these ways:

  • Stop eating out! Eat only what you’ve prepared at home, preferably around the table with your family (when you’re in), or with a carried meal (when away). Most groceries are not taxed, so they don’t add to the government coffers, whereas when you eat out, state and local taxes are often added to the total bill.
  • Stop going to the movies! Wait four or five months and pay $1 at the nearest Red Box (or a subscription to Blockbuster or Hollywood Video or $5-10 subscription to NetFlix) vs. $10/ticket (plus snacks) at the theater. If you want a movie on DVD, get it used on eBay. Hollywood is financially-shaky these days, but unlikely to “Go Galt” (without help), so give them the “help” they need. Even a 5-10% drop in box office receipts will create a panic in Tinseltown.
  • Barter- shop Farmer’s Markets or shop via BarterQuest or look for other opportunities for ‘cashless’ transactions
  • Go with Hand-me-downs – do your shopping at Goodwill, flea markets, garage-sales, yard-sales, or on eBay.
  • Follow Rick Frueh’s advice and “Go Amish!” as much as possible – Do without the newest, prettiest, shiniest technologies. If you sit out upgrading a few years, you’ll likely skip a generation or two of technology and both save money and get more value for your dollar in the end.
  • Go Green – Follow the advice of Matt Sleeth (who spoke last year at Mars Hill Bible Church) and Serve God, Save the Planet by minimizing both your purchases and your waste.
  • Go Green by Gardening – Plant your own vegetable garden. It is one of the most subversive things that can be done at most any income level. Fresh vegetables, healthy eating, no taxes.
  • If it’s double-taxed, multiply it by ten. If something is subject to additional taxes (cigarettes, alcohol, gasoline, sugary soft drinks, etc.) don’t buy any of it – or, if you can’t go cold turkey, imagine it costs 10 times more than it does, and treat it as you would if it were that expensive.
  • Don’t Buy a New Car – especially one built by Government Motors. Instead, buy a used car and drive it until its dust. Cars lose most of their value the fastest within their first year, so buying a used car is the best deal. You’re also better off buying your car in a private transaction. If you insist on buying new, get a Ford.
  • Don’t Buy a New House – One of the key leading indicators of economic health watched by analysts and reported by the news is “new housing starts”. If you move, chose an already-built home (even if you decide you need to add on to it). The current market has a good number of deals, with the depressed real estate values and foreclosures. Pick something that’s waiting to be moved into.
  • Make it a game! Challenge your family to find little ways of both a) identifying ‘hidden’ consumption taxes; and/or b) legally avoiding ways of paying them.
  • Buy Clearance – Out of season and ‘clearance’ items have often already been written off, tax-wise, and may include good deals (or alternative ideas for gifts). Woot! (my favorite), Overstock.Com, and clearance tables at the back of stores are good places to check.
  • Hunting – If you can hunt, replace all or most of your meat intake with what you kill. Deer & Elk season is currently going on in a number of states – go bag one and freeze it.
  • Storage Space - If you have extra freezer space, look into getting a side of beef or a hog or a sheep, and freeze it. Depending on your space, you might need to go in with a friend.

There are hundreds more examples I’m sure we could find. By cutting consumption – or consuming ’smartly’, we actually do three things – we often save money, we avoid paying both direct and indirect taxes, and we create a downstream loss in revenue, which results in lower collection of corporate income taxes (and a loss of jobs, which is also a loss in government revenue and an increase in government social program spending and one step closer to ‘breaking’ the system).

Nuts to the BankerInvesting

Before you even think of investing, it is time to eliminate your debt (see the previous section). If you’ve paid off all of your debt, find a good investment counselor who will help you invest, looking toward an environment that will quite possibly be hyper-inflationary (though hopefully not for an extended period, if the breakdown of social spending can occur in a quick, massive collapse, rather than in a slow death-spiral). They will likely steer your toward commodities like precious metals which are typically safer than bonds (and somewhat moreso than stocks – especially if the government were to institute price controls).

For the Rich

For the Top 5% of American households (those making $175K+ per year), which pay 37% of US Income Tax, the key question is how to eliminate your income tax bill. This can be done in a number of ways (best with a financial counselor – who should be told that your short-term goal in 2010-2012 is to minimize income tax), which might include (depending on your current situation):

  • Retirement – if you can afford to retire, now is the time. Why push yourself harder, when the beast wants to just consume a higher percentage, if you can afford to stop now?
  • A Sabbatical – if you can afford it (particularly by decreasing your consumption level), take a sabbatical and do something you enjoy that doesn’t add to the government’s coffers (see the section on ‘Idle Time’, below)
  • Cutting back – cut back your output to just what you need to live from day-to-day (which may free up time for other non-revenue-producing productive, fulfilling activity)
  • Restructuring – restructure your investments and work so as to defer earnings out past 2012. If we can get a short-term free-fall in government revenue, it is much more likely that tax rates will plummet after 2012.
  • Increased Charitable Giving – increasing your charitable giving will both reduce your tax bill (possibly dropping you into a lower tax-bracket) and help the organizations to which you donate to alleviate some of the (hopefully) short-term discomforts resulting from the collapse of the government’s ever-increasing ’safety net’.
  • Changing the Environment – With the internet, physical location is no longer such a key to surviving in the market-place. If you can afford to (as many “rich” folks have already started to do), it is likely time to move yourself to a state (or country) with low (or no) individual income taxes – and/or to move your business headquarters there

Sticking TogetherThe Middle Class

For those who make between $80K and $175K – you pay about 48% of income taxes. Cutting back on your income tax is a bit more difficult, but not impossible. In addition to the suggestions above (if you can afford them), you might consider:

  • Adding children – the tax breaks (and programs) available for children take money from the government coffers in the short term (17 years or more), and help the long-term demographic problem in the US set up by the currently lowered birthrate.
  • Moving In Together – prior to the Twentieth Century, it was quite common for multi-generational families to all live together under a single roof. There are all sorts of social benefits to the arrangements (assuming there is no insurmountable dysfunction), and a number of living costs can be greatly reduced and taxes avoided.
  • Fully Utilize Retirement Plans - Put the maximum-allowed withholding in your 401K or tax-free retirement plan. Even if you need to borrow back from it and pay the tax penalty in the future, the taxes won’t be available in 2010-2012.
  • Leveraging Tax Breaks – Look for other tax breaks you might be able to leverage (often suggested by TurboTax and other tax-preparing software) that would decrease your tax bill. Exploit every legal avenue to do so.
  • Delay – If you are a small business owner (or thinking about becoming one), follow the current winds – do not expand, do not hire or do not start up, if it is at all feasible. Only do what you need to get by, and look for any tax write-offs you can claim.

The Jobless, Poor and Lower-Middle Class

If you’re making less than $50K/year, you pay about 3% of the Income Taxes collected in the US. There’s not much you can do to impact the tax side of the equation.

However, you can impact the Revenue side of the equation by:

  • Exploiting the System – Using any and every government-supplied form of aid available to you – whether you need it or not. [If you can avoid it, leave private aid organizations alone, so that they can be seen as the best providers of social services.] Do not be too proud to do this, and ease your conscience by knowing that it is for a higher cause. The sooner the programs have to be killed off for their expense and unwieldiness, the better.
  • Gumming Up the System – If you’ve got a reason to be eligible for government aid, you’ve got the reason and right to meet with government aid workers. The more of their time you can eat up with your myriad of questions, complaints and/or suggestions, the less efficient they will be.

Idle Time and the Church

If, by any of your “Galt-ish” measures, you end up freeing time in your life where you would normally be ‘producing’ – keep your edge (and your sanity) by volunteering to do work in your field of expertise in churches and other aid organizations. If the economy continues to slide (and with the knuckleheads currently running the show in DC, there’s not much hope or change in the near term on the economic front), more and more people will need assistance.

It is vitally important that the best, most efficient sources of assistance NOT be funded by, or created by, the government. This is the time for the Christian Church in the US to put up or shut up. It is not the time to ask the government for assistance in caring for the poor. It is time to do it ourselves. It is not the time to look to the welfare system to feed and house and clothe the unfortunate – it is time for us to do it.

When the social spending system collapses, the church needs to be the source of relief.

“When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people, if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.”

The Temple still exists, though it has moved from a fixed location in Jerusalem into the living stones that build the New Temple. Maybe it is time now, and it may well be even more ripe soon, for the New Temple to step forward and fulfill its function and to let Caesar and his nanny state fall into the ash-heap of history…

[In the next article, I will most likely address the specific issue of "Galt-ing" healthcare...]

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This entry was posted on Monday, October 19th, 2009 at 8:53 pm and is filed under Church and Society, Politics. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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50 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 19th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

Is it not miraculous how God has blessed the Chinese church without worrying about all those things? Blessed, you say? Oh yes, I know Americans consider material goods and money to be God’s main source of blessing, but that is a western perspective.

My idea of a faithful western Christian is one who is compassionately orthodox in his theology, and assumes a lifestyle something like Clairbornes, and removes himself from any interaction with the government except to pray and show them Biblical honor.

Oh yes, and eats and spends time consistently with gays, adulterers, prostitutes, homeless, illegal aliens, poor people, pro-choicers, and any and all sinners.

I am sure if we got consumed with things like this we would not have time to worry about what then government is doing. I have searched, to little success, where Jesus spoke of governmental issues to His followers, but that is if you believe the red letters. :cool:

2   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 20th, 2009 at 11:30 am

We believers are so obsessed with the government, we continue to look to them for almost everything. The young Muslim girl who converted to Christ was sent back home, persumable to persecution. But instead of intercessory prayer and rejoicing in a modern day martyr, some, like this blog, continue to look to the government as their source of power and freedom.

The underlying question in this series is just what part, aside from obeying the laws, should the government play in God’s church? I ask you guys, when you read the crosstalk blog, can’t you see more clearly what the idol of nationalism does to the cause of Christ? That blog just shows more openly and forcefully what much of the evangelical community believes.

“I’m proud to be an American” is like saying “I’m proud to be a human”. BTW – If the Pilgrims would have been “proud to be English” they would have stayed and never come to America.

3   troy    http://www.sheepandgoats.blogspot.com
October 21st, 2009 at 8:42 am

Rick,
Is the church you pastor at 501c3? If so, is that a yoke to the state? Just curious about your thoughts on this.
God bless.
troy

4   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 9:26 am

I am retired. But I have never suggested that we do not pay taxes or take advantage of postive tax issues. I am against complaining or lobbying.

I, unlike Calivinists, believe God is in charge of our circumstances, especially as it concerns our living among the lost.

*************

Ayn Rand – atheist.

5   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:13 am

Rick,

I look to the government to maintain a system of justice, to defend its people and to maintain civil order (via protection of the freedoms of religion, speech, press, assembly, etc.) – all Biblical roles of government.

I don’t look to it to force my religious positions through the schools, nor do I see that its place is to play the part of a redistributionist ’sugar daddy’. Both extremes shift burdens from the church to the state.

Ayn Rand – atheist

Your point?

6   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:15 am

“Your point?”

Ayn Rand – atheist. :cool:

7   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:23 am

The underlying question in this series is just what part, aside from obeying the laws, should the government play in God’s church?

Yes, Rick, that is a key question I’m wrestling with. I see a number of “church functions” that have been ursurped by the state, and I’d like to see the state fail at these – spectacularly – in such a way that the church is a) there to pick up the pieces; and b) cured of its fascination with the government acting as the hands and feet of the God it claims to worship.

The only difference between Ponzi Schemes and Big Government socialism (and its incremental forms, like the lie of the “public option” for health care) is that Ponzi’s fail faster.

So the follow-up question becomes, how much can/should we be involved in its downfall, and can the collapse be accelerated in such a way that fewer are hurt in the grand scheme of things? My position is that responsible inaction (like the ways outlined above) is non-violent and broad enough so as to place the blame for the system’s downfall on the system, itself. I’m guessing that your position is the best route is to completely ignore the government and take a “hands off” approach to any change that occurs.

I ask you guys, when you read the crosstalk blog, can’t you see more clearly what the idol of nationalism does to the cause of Christ?

Yes, but I also think you’re sometimes quick to label things as “nationalistic”, which are not so.

8   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:27 am

“So the follow-up question becomes, how much can/should we be involved in its downfall, and can the collapse be accelerated in such a way that fewer are hurt in the grand scheme of things?”

This is a reasonable question, one of several, that ould provide a bsis for some involvement. But involvement always results in compromise and more involvement. And if the systems of this world fail, is that not an opportunity for the kingdom of God to step in?

9   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:27 am

Ayn Rand – atheist

I’ve taken a single idea from her (non-participation on the part of the host in a parasitic relationship) without the additional Objectivist “theology”.

Rand sees altruism as evil – across the board, or at least to an extreme.

I see altruism on the part of government as misguided, since that is not its mission. Altruism is the bailiwick of individuals and the church, and that is where it is best suited.

10   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:28 am

And if the systems of this world fail, is that not an opportunity for the kingdom of God to step in?

YES! My point exactly…

11   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 10:31 am

Let them fail, then, and notify me via e-mail when they do. Seriously, they already have failed, as well as the church as ter her mission.

If we as believers were consumed with the needs of others, and if we lived and preached the gospel of Jesus Christ, wouldn’t much of the hopeless and helpless come running?

Instead they see us as a self righteous club and a right wing political entity.

12   troy    http://www.sheepandgoats.blogspot.com
October 21st, 2009 at 10:46 am

Chris L,
I mostly agree with what you’ve outlined, because most of the actions/inactions, I believe, are based on Biblical principles. Primarily the “staying (getting) out of debt” principle, and the living more off the land principle.
And if we could agree that these are Biblically based, shouldn’t we be doing them anyway?
Oh yeah, and I am in full agreement that we could all have a little more Amish in us.

13   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 2:21 pm

“Let them fail, then, and notify me via e-mail when they do.”

If we “Go Amish”, will we have the internet?

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 2:29 pm

Good point!! :lol:

15   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 2:30 pm

I have a question about our economic system as currently comprised. It is a question I have wrestled with for several years. How can a Christian “weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice” and yet we participate in an economic system where the stock market (which we are all participating in to one degree or another) reacts negatively to people getting jobs?

I have felt the system is fundamentally flawed when “The Market” sees it as a bad thing that people find work. I understand the fears of inflation and blah, blah, blah but there is something strange in this. Perhaps it just the sinful selfishness of man raising its ugly head but it seems ingrained in “the system”.

16   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pm

Oh, and by the way, in Indiana, barter is subject to sales tax. Just FYI.

17   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 2:37 pm

The entire capitalist economic system is a Darwinian construct.

18   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 2:45 pm

“The entire capitalist economic system is a Darwinian construct.”

Sorry, I don’t buy that. Now if you said, “Our entire capitalist economic system is a Darwinian construct.,” that I might believe.

Is any one familiar with the writings of Niall Ferguson? Some fascinating reading from someone uniquely positioned to review the history of the US and the UK. Of particular interest in this discussion are “The Ascent of Money” and “Empire”.

Empire is quite the indictment of the US consumer based society.

19   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
October 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pm

The entire capitalist economic system is a Darwinian construct.

Poor Darwin – he gets blamed for everything…

Stock markets and capitalism certainly predate Darwin.

20   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 2:53 pm

The mentally challengned, the physically handicapped, orphans, women, etc. have a distinct disadvantage in a capitalist economic society such as ours. Home ownership, wealth, and a more pleasurable ambiance of life is disproportionately weighted toward the strong and intellectually superior males. And in America, that would be the “strong and intellectually superior white males”.

Sorry.

21   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 3:02 pm

“The mentally challengned, the physically handicapped, orphans, women, etc. have a distinct disadvantage in a capitalist economic society such as ours.”

And in every other economic society.

“Home ownership, wealth, and a more pleasurable ambiance of life is disproportionately weighted toward the strong and intellectually superior males.”

Proof???

“And in America, that would be the “strong and intellectually superior white males”. Sorry”

Sorry? What’s that supposed to mean? Sorry you couldn’t come up with an answer? Sorry you couldn’t do better than a platitude?

22   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:03 pm

Answer to what?

23   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 3:05 pm

As to the necessity of capitalism being a darwinian construct.

24   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:10 pm

A baby born with a learning disabilty has a dramatically diminished oportunity to achieve what a normal baby can.

A woman has a dramatically diminished oportunity to achieve what a male baby can.

A baby born in a single parent home has a dramatically diminished oportunity to achieve what a two parent baby can.

A baby born into a wealthy home has an increased oportunity to achive wealth.

I have not seen a capitalist system that was also socialist. Where is their a capitalist construct that is different than is ours?

25   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 3:14 pm

“I have not seen a capitalist system that was also socialist. Where is their a capitalist construct that is different than is ours?”

So you are pro-socialism?

26   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:18 pm

I am neither. I attempt to not care about what systems are in place, other than to point out the inherant tendencies toward greed in most of them. The Scriptures are economically silent, except about caring for the poor.

“An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.”

I suggest that the reinvestment part is geared toward increasing the accumulation part. Jesus, if you take His words literally, was against the accumulation of wealth on this earth.

27   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
October 21st, 2009 at 3:19 pm

A baby born with a learning disabilty has a dramatically diminished oportunity to achieve what a normal baby can.

A woman has a dramatically diminished oportunity to achieve what a male baby can.

A baby born in a single parent home has a dramatically diminished oportunity to achieve what a two parent baby can.

A baby born into a wealthy home has an increased oportunity to achive wealth.

I would say these things are true across the board in any given society, regardless of the economic system. At least in the US, despite all the inherent inequalities and problems, there are still opportunities for people to rise above the circumstances they were born into to some degree. A baby born into a poor household in the US certainly has more economic opportunities than one born into a poor household in China, Ethiopia, or India.

I have not seen a capitalist system that was also socialist. Where is their a capitalist construct that is different than is ours?

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this statement.

28   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:21 pm

BTW – Juxtaposed against the words of Jesus I am an open and demonstrable hypocrite. (Just for the record)

29   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:24 pm

” A baby born into a poor household in the US certainly has more economic opportunities than one born into a poor household in China, Ethiopia, or India.”

Absolutely true. However, Phil, would you not agree that there are, in the US, many more missed opportunities for those with some means to help the poor than there are in Ethiopia since the range from poor to wealthy is not as large and the number of wealthy is not nearly the proportion as it is here?

30   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 3:28 pm

“BTW – Juxtaposed against the words of Jesus I am an open and demonstrable hypocrite. (Just for the record)”

Yeah, well who isn’t.

“Jesus, if you take His words literally, was against the accumulation of wealth on this earth.”

Please define wealth. Am I wealthy is I own two coats, or even one?

31   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:33 pm

John – I suggest that through linguistic manipulation we can deconstruct almost anything. I also suggest that with some parameters the principle that Christ was teaching is greed, evidenced by a concerted effort to accumalate wealth for personal consumption.

But to answer your question in the abstract, if you had 2 cents more than you needed and your neighbor was dying of starvation, you are wealthy and should share. :cool:

32   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
October 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pm

Absolutely true. However, Phil, would you not agree that there are, in the US, many more missed opportunities for those with some means to help the poor than there are in Ethiopia since the range from poor to wealthy is not as large and the number of wealthy is not nearly the proportion as it is here?

I completely agree. To me it gets back to the point that if you want to have a system that allows people to accumulate wealth for the purpose of blessing others, that system will also by default allow greedy people to hoard their wealth. Unless you want some sort of big brother agency deciding how much people should make and being involved in social engineering, I don’t see how you’ll avoid that. Even if you do have tax schemes that try to “punish” the rich, it seems they always find a way around them.

33   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:41 pm

The tax schemes are none of our concern.

34   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 3:51 pm

I wasn’t trying to deconstruct anything. But I do believe that the Bible (particularly the book of Acts) shows us that the accumulation of goods is not of necessity evil but warns of the grasping nature of unredeemed man and man’s bent nature toward greed and faith in self rather than in God.

I’m looking for a redeemed system that allows me to bless others with the fruits of my labor and therefore glorify God. I don’t know if its possible but I can pray. Maybe its a waste of time and effort.

35   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 3:52 pm

“The tax schemes are none of our concern.”

So justice is of no concern?

36   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 3:57 pm

Our mission is to be the justice, not to force the fallen government to provide the justice that we should provide. However, what tax system would provide Biblical justice?

37   Phil Miller    http://pmwords.blogspot.com
October 21st, 2009 at 4:02 pm

Our mission is to be the justice, not to force the fallen government to provide the justice that we should provide. However, what tax system would provide Biblical justice?

I agree with that, too. But we also shouldn’t encourage the government to use it’s power to stick it to people we don’t like, either. I see Christians on the right try to do this with people who have sex with people they shouldn’t and ones on the left try to do it with people they think make too much money.

38   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 4:04 pm

I agree, Phil, but what Biblical template do you use for tax systems, or politician salaries, or budget items?

39   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 4:10 pm

“What tax system would provide Biblical justice?”

I’m concerned about just the opposite–What tax system would be unjust?

40   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 4:17 pm

“I’m concerned about just the opposite–What tax system would be unjust?”

Almost all of them since they are influenced by lobbyists, the rich, the politician’s inbred bias, each politicain’s impartiality toward his own state, and an obscene misuse of the tax dollars themselves.

This principle increases when the geography increases. So the local tax dollar has some of that, the state tax dolars have more of that, and the federal tax dollars are obscenely affected by the things I have mentioned.

41   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 4:17 pm

“However, Phil, would you not agree that there are, in the US, many more missed opportunities for those with some means to help the poor than there are in Ethiopia since the range from poor to wealthy is not as large and the number of wealthy is not nearly the proportion as it is here?”

BTW just a little FYI, I was in Ethiopia during the famine of ‘84-’85. The poor here are kings and queens when compared with the abject poverty which was imposed on the people of Eretria by the government. Seeing children die in feeding camps is substantially different than working with the poor here.

42   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 4:19 pm

“Almost all of them since they are influenced by lobbyists, the rich, the politician’s inbred bias, each politicain’s impartiality toward his own state, and an obscene misuse of the tax dollars themselves.
This principle increases when the geography increases. So the local tax dollar has some of that, the state tax dolars have more of that, and the federal tax dollars are obscenely affected by the things I have mentioned.”

I agree totally. So if we want justice and we can change it, shouldn’t we?

43   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 4:23 pm

“each politicain’s impartiality toward his own state”.

You meant “partiality”, yes?

44   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 4:35 pm

Yes, I meant “significant partiality”! :)

I agree with you African comment. The believer should see the world, not just his voting district, state, or even country. Peopel here, including believers, are all upset about the health care debate. ( I have none myself not because I chose not to but I cannot afford it) but we are not as concerned with 5000 Africans dying daily with AIDs and 6000 Africans dying daily with malaria.

Doesn’t that show a nationalistic and environmental bias that is in direct conflict with the teachings of jesus. “Who is my neighbor?”

Many times the answer is “me”.

45   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 4:50 pm

6000 Africans dying daily with malaria.

I have been on a personal crusade about the near outlawing of DDT for almost 30 years. The lack of good science in this stupid debate is blinding and we, for the most part, stood on the sidelines and did nothing. Talk about injustice. “Its not about me. We don’t have malaria here. And I was in 7th grade science glass that DDT was bad for birds. So I guess they’ll just have to die.”

Man this is a hot button issue with me!

46   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 21st, 2009 at 5:02 pm

I believe it is a hot button issue for God as well.

47   John Kenneson    
October 21st, 2009 at 5:03 pm

“And I was in 7th grade science glass that DDT was bad for birds.”

See , I can’t even type when talking about this!

It should be, “And I was in 7th grade science class and heard that DDT was bad for birds.”

48   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 23rd, 2009 at 6:20 pm

BtW: It’s already started.

Go Galt!

UPDATE: Add this, too. Sweet!

49   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 23rd, 2009 at 6:33 pm

#48 – Just another form of “things are getting worse” which you criticize when left behinders suggest it. But because it deals with money, it reveals where our core concerns are.

Listen to Rush and Hannity and Beck and they all deal disproportionately with money issues, however their outrage about abortion or crimes against gays or spiritual issues is nil.

Where your treasure is, that will be where our hearts are. No one cares about the tax practices in Greece. Why? Our money isn’t there.

50   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 23rd, 2009 at 6:43 pm

I don’t see “things are getting worse” as doom-and-gloom, but rather as an appropriate response to a society that has become addicted to spending other people’s money (you know, that sin called “coveting” in the Big 10).

I don’t listen to Rush (he’s on while I’m working) or Beck (he’s on at, like, 2 am), and Hannity’s not all that convenient, though, either. I’ve heard Hannity deal w/ abortion on several occasions – but it’s not currently an issue that anything can be done about, from a political standpoint, so why would a political commentator spend a lot of energy on it right now? I don’t see all that many “crimes against gays” these days, either…